Protestant Objections re Purgatory & Exorcisms

[KnightIHSV]

Can someone help me with these two Protestant friends’ objections to Catholicism:

(1) if we pray for a deceased relative, and they are in Heaven, then what is the point? How can we help someone who has died if they have not been faithful in life to Christ? Purgatory is a second chance that is not allowed. I have responded that the Church teaches that no prayer is ever wasted. I have struggled to explain Purgatory and have appreciated the CAF tracts on this subject.

(2) Re exorcisms: one Protestant friend says that it is strange to him that the Church requires only priests/bishops to do exorcisms - should not every Christian disciple be able to do them? Apparently his Baptist church has a common exorcism ministry which frankly worries me. I have struggled to answer this one so any help here much appreciated.

Much appreciated for your help. Question 1 was asked by an Anglican friend that I am trying to explain the Church to in order to help him “come home” as he is dismayed by the disastrous state of the Anglican communion and feels homeless.

 

[Starrsmother]

Can someone help me with these two Protestant friends’ objections to Catholicism:

(1) if we pray for a deceased relative, and they are in Heaven, then what is the point? How can we help someone who has died if they have not been faithful in life to Christ? Purgatory is a second chance that is not allowed. I have responded that the Church teaches that no prayer is ever wasted. I have struggled to explain Purgatory and have appreciated the CAF tracts on this subject.

(2) Re exorcisms: one Protestant friend says that it is strange to him that the Church requires only priests/bishops to do exorcisms - should not every Christian disciple be able to do them? Apparently his Baptist church has a common exorcism ministry which frankly worries me. I have struggled to answer this one so any help here much appreciated.

Much appreciated for your help. Question 1 was asked by an Anglican friend that I am trying to explain the Church to in order to help him “come home” as he is dismayed by the disastrous state of the Anglican communion and feels homeless.

Think of the Apostles Creed. If your Anglican friend can accept it–then you are well on your way and can explain purgatory to him–if he absolutely won’t accept the Creed, then he isn’t quite ready for conversion yet!

In the Creed we say that we believe in the “communion of saints”–which refers to those in heaven already and those in purgatory and those of us still on our way, we hope, to heaven–we are, in fact a community or group of individuals united in Jesus, whether on earth or beyond the grave. Purgatory–as a place of final cleansing from any sins we committed but haven’t yet fully atoned for on earth and prior to our death is a tradition that I’ve noticed has its roots in older Jewish liturgy and the OT —but which was accepted as an infallible Catholic teaching by one of the earlier papal councils–for the life of me, I can’t remember which one. Some smart person can give you the info–or simply plug the question into your search engine and I’ll bet the answer pops up. Another words, depending on your friends belief system, if a concept such as a communion of saints isn’t acceptable to him–he probably won’t accept purgatory which is related to this concept either. The bottom line reason we believe we can help souls in purgatory by prayers, sacrifice etc., is because of that communion. We believe the saints can help us on earth and we ask them for prayers, right? Well, the poor souls can no longer help themselves–but since we are all in this together, so to speak, we can pray for these souls, ask the saints to pray, etc and we believe that God, in his mercy, listens and may in fact show His mercy by admitting these souls into paradise sooner than they otherwise would have been.

As to exorcisms, in a genuine one–not one of the pretend ones they do on the sci-fi channel— you would be dealing with a very intelligent, very powerful, very devious and completely evil entity. Even priests (including bishops) who do this are required to take special courses–part of the course is designed to help an exorcist determine when something is actually possessed vs when perhaps someone is mentally ill or has a creaky floor in an older house. A priest or bishop who performs exorcisms must be first granted permission to do so from higher ups in order to perform the ritual. Another words, not even ALL priests or bishops can do so. Laity have neither the skill nor the commission to perform exorcisms and since there is grave danger in screwing around with Satan–thus the admonition to refrain from fortune telling or delving into things like Black Magic—it must only be performed by specific priests with a high degree of knowledge and experience–and in specific circumstances. I suspect if most of us “average Joe-type” lay people actually ran into a true demon, much less Satan himself, we might get eaten for lunch—and it might not end well for anyone concerned! As my old Dad used to say when he was still alive: “Smart folk don’t stick their hand in a hole unless they are damn sure that they know what’s inside the hole!”

 

[Dorothy]

Purgatory is not a second chance.

It is a place where, if we need purification, God takes care of that.

Exorcisms in the name of the Church needs to be done by the priest. It involves a depth of possession that requires this special help.

Ordinary deliverance from oppression and deep-rooted sin hard to be free of, can be handled with spiritual warfare prayers.

For the most part, this deliverance can be handled by devout, prayerful reception of the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist.

 

[dronald]

Purgatory is not a second chance.

It is a place where, if we need purification, God takes care of that.

.

Which seems strange. It kinda defeats the idea of Jesus dying for us. Couldn’t God just send us to purgatory instead?

 

[Dorothy]

Which seems strange. It kinda defeats the idea of Jesus dying for us. Couldn’t God just send us to purgatory instead?

Those who need purification (purgatory) are different from those who reject the grace of God and do not repent.

The Lord gives them many chances during this life and they freely choose to reject them.

 

[dronald]

Those who need purification (purgatory) are different from those who reject the grace of God and do not repent.

The Lord gives them many chances during this life and they freely choose to reject them.

This doesn’t really explain my objection though. God could easily stick anyone into purgatory, believer or not if He wanted to cleanse us of sin… that is to say, if that made sense. Fortunately we have a Savior who has cleansed us of sin.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

We can all pray for people but a priest prays or does exorcism on behalf of the entire church. So not just me praying for you but the entire Church with Christ as its head praying for you.

 

[Dorothy]

This doesn’t really explain my objection though. God could easily stick anyone into purgatory, believer or not if He wanted to cleanse us of sin… that is to say, if that made sense. Fortunately we have a Savior who has cleansed us of sin.

When a person rejects the grace of God, they cannot stand the sight of God. I’m sure the Catechism can explain purgatory better than I can.

 

[Starrsmother]

Which seems strange. It kinda defeats the idea of Jesus dying for us. Couldn’t God just send us to purgatory instead?

Not strange at all. Jesus died to erase original sin and basically only that. Before He died–nobody went to heaven when they died–even the saintliest person out there. There was zero hope of heaven in any man’s future when he died–none at all! God was mad–as I told my kids–really, really mad at all mankind! And roasting a lamb or a bird or a goat in a sacrifice to Him did not make Him any happier at all! Not one bit! Then Jesus died on the cross for us to save us from the punishment for that original sin. God the Father did like that–He accepted that sacrifice as adequate. So now, if we are baptized and live right we can hope to go to heaven when we die. However, we often manage to commit personal sins during our lives. For those sins, we may be forgiven through confession–but we still owe restitution or atonement–which ever you choose call it. It’s like if you stole $1000 from a friend. If you went to the friend and sincerely apologized, he’d probably forgive you–but you still owe him $1000. If we sin during our life on earth, are forgiven in confession and die in a state of grace, we will ultimately go to heaven, as Jesus died for us and thus the punishment God gave all mankind for original sin is over and done with. But if we’ve only made up $500 of that $1000 we stole before we die–we still owe $500 more in atonement. This is the same regardless of the sin: lying, stealing, fornication, etc etc–we owe atonement for them all–and if we don’t do enough to atone for them on earth, we will do so in purgatory before being welcomed into heaven. It’s actually a simple concept. Jesus died to save us from the result of one particular thing–original sin—not so that we could do as we like all through our lives and still be welcomed into heaven with no strings attached!

 

[KrazyKat]

Which seems strange. It kinda defeats the idea of Jesus dying for us. Couldn’t God just send us to purgatory instead?

Do you honestly believe that anyone leaves this earth totally cleansed ? For every sin you have been forgiven do you feel you have done enough penance to pay what is due for the sin ?

You steal from me and I forgive you, I still expect you to repay me.

Daily prayer for Church Suffering helps the poor souls in Purgatory.

 

[christisnme]

i think we have to read first the cathchsm of the cathlc church.
it will help a lot in that matter.
let us alwaya be reminded that our protestant brothers nd sisters’ objections, is just to confuse us.
hold on to our faith. let d holy spirit speak. god blss

 

[JonNC]

i think we have to read first the cathchsm of the cathlc church.
it will help a lot in that matter.
let us alwaya be reminded that our protestant brothers nd sisters’ objections, is just to confuse us.
hold on to our faith. let d holy spirit speak. god blss

Welcome to CAF.

Regarding the bolded, are you saying here that the only reason protestants do not believe in the intermediate state/place of Purgatory is because we want to confuse Catholics?

Jon

 

[KnightIHSV]

Think of the Apostles Creed. If your Anglican friend can accept it–then you are well on your way and can explain purgatory to him–if he absolutely won’t accept the Creed, then he isn’t quite ready for conversion yet!

In the Creed we say that we believe in the “communion of saints”–which refers to those in heaven already and those in purgatory and those of us still on our way, we hope, to heaven–we are, in fact a community or group of individuals united in Jesus, whether on earth or beyond the grave. Purgatory–as a place of final cleansing from any sins we committed but haven’t yet fully atoned for on earth and prior to our death is a tradition that I’ve noticed has its roots in older Jewish liturgy and the OT —but which was accepted as an infallible Catholic teaching by one of the earlier papal councils–for the life of me, I can’t remember which one. Some smart person can give you the info–or simply plug the question into your search engine and I’ll bet the answer pops up. Another words, depending on your friends belief system, if a concept such as a communion of saints isn’t acceptable to him–he probably won’t accept purgatory which is related to this concept either. The bottom line reason we believe we can help souls in purgatory by prayers, sacrifice etc., is because of that communion. We believe the saints can help us on earth and we ask them for prayers, right? Well, the poor souls can no longer help themselves–but since we are all in this together, so to speak, we can pray for these souls, ask the saints to pray, etc and we believe that God, in his mercy, listens and may in fact show His mercy by admitting these souls into paradise sooner than they otherwise would have been.

As to exorcisms, in a genuine one–not one of the pretend ones they do on the sci-fi channel— you would be dealing with a very intelligent, very powerful, very devious and completely evil entity. Even priests (including bishops) who do this are required to take special courses–part of the course is designed to help an exorcist determine when something is actually possessed vs when perhaps someone is mentally ill or has a creaky floor in an older house. A priest or bishop who performs exorcisms must be first granted permission to do so from higher ups in order to perform the ritual. Another words, not even ALL priests or bishops can do so. Laity have neither the skill nor the commission to perform exorcisms and since there is grave danger in screwing around with Satan–thus the admonition to refrain from fortune telling or delving into things like Black Magic—it must only be performed by specific priests with a high degree of knowledge and experience–and in specific circumstances. I suspect if most of us “average Joe-type” lay people actually ran into a true demon, much less Satan himself, we might get eaten for lunch—and it might not end well for anyone concerned! As my old Dad used to say when he was still alive: “Smart folk don’t stick their hand in a hole unless they are damn sure that they know what’s inside the hole!”

Many thanks. This is very helpful.

 

[Jeanne_S]

This doesn’t really explain my objection though. God could easily stick anyone into purgatory, believer or not if He wanted to cleanse us of sin… that is to say, if that made sense. Fortunately we have a Savior who has cleansed us of sin.

Christ purchased our redemption through His suffering and dying on the cross.Our salvation,however,is not guaranteed.We have free will and will continue to sin because of our human nature.It is only through God’s grace and our persevering in the hope of our salvation that we can grow n holiness and virtue.Through uniting our sufferings with Christ,we can do expiation for our sins.Through prayer and other acts of charity as well.However Purgatory is essential for the final purifying of our souls.

 

[dronald]

Not strange at all. Jesus died to erase original sin and basically only that.

So Jesus didn’t die for all sin, just certain sins?

Do you honestly believe that anyone leaves this earth totally cleansed ? For every sin you have been forgiven do you feel you have done enough penance to pay what is due for the sin ?

You steal from me and I forgive you, I still expect you to repay me.

Maybe that’s what you or I would do, but we’re talking about the Holiest most perfect Person to ever walk this Earth. If I stole Jesus’s coat, He would give me His cloak as well. And He most certainly would forgive me and ask nothing in return.

Christ purchased our redemption through His suffering and dying on the cross.Our salvation,however,is not guaranteed.We have free will and will continue to sin because of our human nature.It is only through God’s grace and our persevering in the hope of our salvation that we can grow n holiness and virtue.Through uniting our sufferings with Christ,we can do expiation for our sins.Through prayer and other acts of charity as well.However Purgatory is essential for the final purifying of our souls.

But if Purgatory can just cleanse us of sin, why couldn’t God just send everyone there if that is really just?

 

[Jeanne_S]

So Jesus didn’t die for all sin, just certain sins?

Maybe that’s what you or I would do, but we’re talking about the Holiest most perfect Person to ever walk this Earth. If I stole Jesus’s coat, He would give me His cloak as well. And He most certainly would forgive me and ask nothing in return.

But if Purgatory can just cleanse us of sin, why couldn’t God just send everyone there if that is really just?

We in our free will make the choice of heaven or hell.God doesn’t send us there.Those souls who on seeing the Beatific Vision ,in humility recognize they need further cleansing,will willingly go to Purgatory,knowing,eventually they will be in Heaven.

 

[Jeanne_S]

So Jesus didn’t die for all

But if Purgatory can just cleanse us of sin, why couldn’t God just send everyone there if that is really just?

because God is just,He gives us the freedom to love Him,or reject Him .This is free will.This doesn’t change upon death.Souls that desire heaven,upon seeing the Beatific Vision,will recognizethe need for further purification,expiation of their sis.They choose purgatory with the certainty of eventually being united with God in heaven. However,once in Pergatory they can no longer do anything to help their plight,therefore an act of charity for those here is to pray for the Holy Souls.

 

[Usagi]

But if Purgatory can just cleanse us of sin, why couldn’t God just send everyone there if that is really just?

You keep speaking of Purgatory as if it is a mechanism separate from, or some kind of alternative to, the salvation won by the shed blood of Jesus.

Purgatory is one particular application of that salvation. It would not exist if Jesus had not died for us.

Even Protestants usually teach that, in addition to our initial justification, we also undergo by God’s grace a more gradual process of sanctification that might well take the rest of our lives. In Catholic thinking Purgatory is the final stage of that sanctification, for those of us (seemingly, most of us) who have not been brought to full sanctity on earth.

Usagi

 

[Usagi]

Also, your Anglican friend has almost hit upon the very logic that caused the Church to propose the existence of something like Purgatory in the first place, except he has it backwards. It was already established in both Jewish and Christian tradition that prayers for the dead are commendable and efficacious. Just as your friend says, though, it was clear that prayers for a soul in Heaven would be unnecessary and prayers for a soul in Hell would be pointless. Thus, there must be a third option, a place or state in which the dead hope for Heaven but have not fully achieved it yet. The name Purgatory was applied to that state.

As for the concern that Purgatory is a second chance, that is a serious misunderstanding of the belief. The damned don’t go to Purgatory. Only the saved do, and there is no way for a soul in Purgatory to end up anywhere but Heaven. As C.S. Lewis (very much an Anglican himself) described it, Purgatory is like the antechamber of Heaven where you get cleaned and freshened up before heading into the eternal wedding feast.

Usagi

 

[dronald]

because God is just,He gives us the freedom to love Him,or reject Him .This is free will.This doesn’t change upon death.Souls that desire heaven,upon seeing the Beatific Vision,will recognizethe need for further purification,expiation of their sis.They choose purgatory with the certainty of eventually being united with God in heaven. However,once in Pergatory they can no longer do anything to help their plight,therefore an act of charity for those here is to pray for the Holy Souls.

So, those who reject Jesus also go to Purgatory because then they can see the beatific vision and be purified of their sins? If I get a second chance to cleanse my sin after death, wouldn’t it be reasonable that everyone gets a second chance?

You keep speaking of Purgatory as if it is a mechanism separate from, or some kind of alternative to, the salvation won by the shed blood of Jesus.

Purgatory is one particular application of that salvation. It would not exist if Jesus had not died for us.

Why can’t Purgatory exist without the death of Jesus? It’s a place for purification of sins… If that’s what it’s for, then why can’t God put anyone there to be purified?