Protestant or No?

[Maccabees]

Well if you want to get technical here protestant is not a church but a movement of protesting the catholic church.

According to the church and the magesterium (now I know this is going to tick off some people) the protestant movement does not have a church they are ecclesial communities the only churches are those connected the apostolic community of the first century and have kept vladi ordiantions and apostolic tradtions from then to the present time. THus only the catholic and orthodox church exists as church the others are ecclesial communities.
When we are not defining things in technical matter one would be free to say Baptist church, Lutehean church etc but not in the sense catholics think of the CHURCH. There are 3 bodies that make up Christianity the catholic church the orthodox church and protestant communities. That’s from a catholic point of view.
Don’t get mad at me this is from the church’s point of view.

 

[Bryan]

No reason to get mad at you Macc. I’m not mad at all on the stance of the Catholic Church when it comes to that. When it comes down to it, it’s all about apostolic lineage so to say. I do not have a problem with that for various reasons, first of which is the fact that it really doesn’t make that much of a difference. People worshiping are people worshiping, reguardless if they are a “church” or not, atleast in my book.

 

[bengal_fan]

i am still confused as to why orthodox churches aren’s “protestant”? i know the historical arguments and i am an extremely literate person (meaning, i’m not stupid). but if we define protestant as anyone protesting against the catholic church, it would seem they are the first. they are still protesting the filioque and the father-like position of the pope in relation to all other bishops and the church in general. that seems like protesting to me. i know that, in america (for that is my frame of reference) the term protestant has taken on a very “jerry fallwell” meaning (i.e. televangelists, tent meetings, southern in some respect, fundamentalist at times, evangelistic, etc.) which would, at first glance, exclude anglicans, lutherans, orthodox. but we need to not overlook the fact that anyone not connected with the body that Christ formed here on earth (this is not to say that they might not be spiritually connected but they are still missing out on many things which Christ intended for us to experience) is “protesting” something and that protest is keeping them from the fullness of faith (in fact, they are protesting one or more aspects of that fullness of faith which is a dangerous position). therefore, we cannot give up using the term protestant and i even suggest extending it to mean orthodox (of course that probably wouldn’t help the movement to bring them back into full communion so i am okay if the magisterium doesn’t back my interpretation )

 

[flameburns623]

Contarini:

Which is also silly. We should just drop all the attempts to be clever and profound and draw meanings from the word “protest” or whatever.

A Protestant is a member of any church which separated from the Western Catholic Church in the 16th century, or derives from or has been heavily influenced by such a church. End of discussion.

And yes, that means that we Anglicans are Protestants, no matter how un-“Protestant” our theology may be.

In Christ,

Edwin

And apparently despite the fact that many of we who are Anglican disavow the term ‘Protestant’ in it’s strictest sense.

I think the biggest issue I would point to is that some of the early posts in this thread seem to speak of “the Protestant Church” as if there were only one, or as if the individual Protestant bodies are somehow appendant bodies of one another. While I and other non-Roman Catholic Christians–whether we think of ourselves as ‘catholics’ with a small ‘c’ or as ‘Reformational Christians’ or as ‘Protestants’–like to point out our many affinities with the RCC and with each othwe are sadly NOT a single corporate entity.

 

[mark_a]

Contarini:

And yes, that means that we Anglicans are Protestants, no matter how un-“Protestant” our theology may be.

In Christ,

Edwin

Just curious, do Protestants of other denominations give y’all a hard time concerning any Catholic-like beliefs you may hold? If so, is it the belief or the similarity that causes the problem?

 

[Bryan]

It’s the belief. With catholic churches believing in things like apostolic succession, etc, the protestant churches find themselves with “catholic adversaries.” They know that catholics believe they are not legitimate churches (they are legitimate communities, but not “Churches”). Other such issues arise, such as Eucharist, etc…but it would also be unfair to say that Catholics and Protestants don’t argue because of how similar they are. That is a major reason for both argument and debate amoungst RC and the older Protestant faiths (Episc. and Luth.).

 

[Exporter]

Bryan:

That’s like saying that the Swastika used in Nazi Germany was the same symbolic swastika early Christians used.

Words change meaning…times change, things DO NOT always stay the same.

The definition of “protestant” has changed, why don’t you go look it up. www.m-w.com

-Bryan

** Two things Bryan wrote that are confusing are:

1. The pronoun “That” in the first sentance - what is “that”?
2. If Bryan is saying early Christians had a swastika for their symbol, Bryan needs to provide documentation. From my feeble research the swastika was a good luck symbol of some American Indians. Show where it was an early Christian symbol.
   And : The meaning of *protest has not changed since the English started writting. *Protestant is simply a *protester.

 

[Exporter]

Bryan your website gives this for protestant.
Main Entry: 1prot·es·tant [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascriptopWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?protes05.wav=protestant’)) [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascriptopWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?protes04.wav=protestant’))
Pronunciation: 'prä-t&s-t&nt, *2 is also *pr&-'tes-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin *protestant-, protestans, *present participle of protestari
1 capitalized a : any of a group of German princes and cities presenting a defense of freedom of conscience against an edict of the Diet of Spires in 1529 intended to suppress the Lutheran movement b : a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth; broadly : a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church

The bottom line is:"A Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church,"

 

[OhioBob]

Bryan:

Thanks guys, but there is something that Catholics think is the “Central Protestant Thought”, which isn’t true. And ContraFool, I’m sorry but you are wrong. The Lutheran Church does not proclaim the Catholic Church to be wrong. Like all churches, it has its differences with RC, but of all the “other” sects, it is the closest and has the best relations with RC.

With all due respect and charity, Bryan, do you really believe what you are typing?

I am no expert in LCMS theology, but a quick visit to the website and a review of the information regarding the LCMS take on Catholic theology seems to directly contradict your assertion that “The Lutheran Church does not proclaim the Catholic Church to be wrong” (or maybe I misinterpreted the part about the papacy being the antichrist).

I know that there are differences between the LCMS and the ELCA and I might agree more that the differences between Catholics and the ELCA are few and lessening. But the LCMS seems to have staked out a much more extreme position vis a vis Catholics.

Am I misinterpreting the LCMS information? If so, how so?

Thanks for your help in clarifying things.

Blessings.

 

[OhioBob]

Exporter:

From my feeble research the swastika was a good luck symbol of some American Indians. Show where it was an early Christian symbol.

I am equally feeble on this point, Ex. I am familiar with the native american usage, but I have never heard about early Christian usage. I think Bryan might have mistyped…