Protestant ordinariate?

[filius_Immacula]

We have the Anglican ordinaries for converted Ashland who wish to retain their liturgy in the catholic church is it possible that such an initiative could be taken for concerts from other protestant confessions, even those who are “low church”, I’m sure there are those attached to low church liturgies as those attached to high church liturgies and traditions.

 

[InThePew]

We have the Anglican ordinaries for converted Ashland who wish to retain their liturgy in the catholic church is it possible that such an initiative could be taken for concerts from other protestant confessions, even those who are “low church”, I’m sure there are those attached to low church liturgies as those attached to high church liturgies and traditions.

Highly unlikely since the degree of difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations is far too great to be bridged as was done with Anglicanism which was always intended to be a via media (middle path) between catholicism and Protestantism. The lack of a concept of ordained ministry (not to mention sacramental priesthood) alone would be an insurmountable obstacle, not to mention the different understanding of the eucharist.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Highly unlikely since the degree of difference between Catholicism and most protestant denominations is far too great to be bridged as was done with Anglicanism which was always intended to be a via media (middle path) between catholicism and Protestantism. The lack of a concept of ordained ministry (not to mention sacramental priesthood) alone would be an insurmountable obstacle, not to mention the different understanding of the eucharist.

The via media believe didn’t exist until the Oxford Movement so I tend to disagree with your line of reasoning and the 39 Articles of Religion don’t seem very Catholic

 

[InThePew]

The via media believe didn’t exist until the Oxford Movement so I tend to disagree with your line of reasoning and the 39 Articles of Religion don’t seem very Catholic

Admittedly, one of the difficulties in talking about the Anglican Church is defining what “is” is The Anglican Church basically subscribes to a philosophy of unity in diversity - so that means that, when it comes to the eucharist for example, there’s a spectrum of belief from “transubstantiation-in-all-but-name” to “memorial supper” (although all Anglicans are supposed to believe in the real presence… officially at least). In other words, there’s such a broad range of viewpoints within the Anglican Church that it’s talking about it necessarily requires a fair amount of generalisation. that said, they do at least have seven sacraments as well as a concept of ordained ministry so that’s a good start and, as I said earlier, more than some protestant Churches have.

 

[filius_Immacula]

Admittedly, one of the difficulties in talking about the Anglican Church is defining what “is” is The Anglican Church basically subscribes to a philosophy of unity in diversity - so that means that, when it comes to the eucharist for example, there’s a spectrum of belief from “transubstantiation-in-all-but-name” to “memorial supper” (although all Anglicans are supposed to believe in the real presence… officially at least). In other words, there’s such a broad range of viewpoints within the Anglican Church that it’s talking about it necessarily requires a fair amount of generalisation. that said, they do at least have seven sacraments as well as a concept of ordained ministry so that’s a good start and, as I said earlier, more than some protestant Churches have.

Actually, outside of pentocostal and fundies, there I a great emergence of belief in the real presence and pastors, which some anglicas call their ministers, are becoming more and more liturgical. Ever heard of the emerging church or the convergence movement

 

[MiserableSinner]

From wiki
In the Catholic Church, Pope Leo XIII stated in his 1896 bull Apostolicae curae that the Catholic Church believes specifically that the Anglican Church’s consecrations are “absolutely null and utterly void” because of changes made to the rite of consecration during the 16th century, under Edward VI, thus denying that Anglicans participate in the apostolic succession. Anglican clergy, then, are ordained as Catholic priests upon entry into the Catholic Church.[71]:105

It looks like they can not have the real Holy Eucharist anyways, even if they DO believe in the real presence of Christ some how. What they have on their high church altars is just bread and wine.

Apostolic succession goes back to Christ when He gave the first Holy Orders. For 1500 years the Church taught the same thing - no succession, no valid consecration (no valid Holy Confession and no valid Holy Eucharist). Protestants didn’t change what is literally happening supernaturally just by changing beliefs.

 

[mjwise]

From wiki
In the Catholic Church, Pope Leo XIII stated in his 1896 bull Apostolicae curae that the Catholic Church believes specifically that the Anglican Church’s consecrations are “absolutely null and utterly void” because of changes made to the rite of consecration during the 16th century, under Edward VI, thus denying that Anglicans participate in the apostolic succession. Anglican clergy, then, are ordained as Catholic priests upon entry into the Catholic Church.[71]:105

It looks like they can not have the real Holy Eucharist anyways, even if they DO believe in the real presence of Christ some how. What they have on their high church altars is just bread and wine.

In the years and decades after Apostolicae curae, Old Catholic bishops of undisputed apostolic lineage co-consecrated Anglican bishops and, in addition to the fact that no pope weighed in on the post-Edward VI forms of Anglican episcopal consecration, and no pope is likely to weigh in again officially on them, what you pose therefore is an open question.

 

[Rolltide]

I do know that around the time that the Anglican Ordinariate was proposed the pope had mentioned some very vague talk that something similar, at some point well in the future, could be envisioned for some portions of the Lutheran Church, but that was about the limit that the church could go based on how doctrinally divergent most other denominations were.

 

[JerryZ]

However some of you are missing the point, namely that some high church Anglicans whom saw the necessity to rejoin with the Universal Church and took steps to do so. The Pope meantime made it possible for them to be reunited by offering them what they lacked.

Meantime other protestant denominations are farther away than those high church Anglicans hence it is quite a lot harder for the Pope to create a channel for reunification.

How can someone be brought into the fold that does not believe Baptism regenerates the soul and imprints an indelible mark in the soul of the baptised. Some Christians believe that Baptism is totally optional. “Accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour” saves you instead.

You do not need to belong to “the Church” it’s the Jesus and ME mentality, so prevalent in America.

The issues are so many and so deep theologically that it would be almost impossible for them to be brought back into the fold, never mind the fact that for many or them, the Pope is the Anti Christ hence they would never submit to his authority.
In the end it is up to us to show them the true meaning of being Catholic and by implication Christian and the Holy Spirit to move their harts to convert. After all, it was precisely the conversion of those High Church Anglicans that moved them to ask the Pope for admittance to the Church.

…

 

[PaulfromIowa]

There could certainly be a Lutheran Ordinariate, as Lutheran churches have retained much of the Catholic liturgy. Perhaps even a Presbyterian Ordinariate. Baptists are more distant from Catholicism liturgically.

The theological issues are the biggest problem. Anyone entering into Communion with the Catholic or Orthodox Churches must accept all seven sacraments. Many modernist Protestants groups don’t accept any sacraments, even baptism.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

We have the Anglican ordinaries for converted Ashland who wish to retain their liturgy in the catholic church is it possible that such an initiative could be taken for concerts from other protestant confessions, even those who are “low church”, I’m sure there are those attached to low church liturgies as those attached to high church liturgies and traditions.

The Anglican Use ordinariates (and the pastoral provision that preceded the ordinariates by 30 years) are about much more than the liturgies they celebrate. It is about an entire patrimony that is properly theirs and that they have brought with them. And it is about them as a distinct group, existing under their own proper prelate.

It is not possible to have a “Protestant ordinariate” as such since the liturgies as well as the traditions are specific…they are not generic.

There are currently more than ten dialogues with specific groupings of the faithful at an international level that the Holy See is concurrently engaged in. That said, the original pastoral provision that brought forth the ordinariates was not the fruit of a dialogue, per se, as much as the spontaneous request of a group of priests of the Anglican Communion for a pastoral provision by the Holy See for themselves and their faithful to be able to live in full communion with the Bishop of Rome. Of course, the work of ARCIC had laid a significant groundwork but the critical role of individuals, such as Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Šeper, was critical for the pastoral provision coming into existence. The first group coming over were not unlike Abraham leaving his homeland and security to embark on a pilgrimage the destination of which was promised but the means and timings and vicissitudes not so sure.

It is certainly very possible that the ordinariate mechanism could be used again. I can imagine it happening in one particular instance especially – but, of course, it requires that those coming into full communion with Rome in such circumstance manifest a Catholic mind regarding the seven sacraments as well as the necessary ecclesiology. That is not a plausible expectation with several of the dialogue partners, once one reaches a certain point ecumenically and ecclesiologically.

 

[Latinitas]

We have the Anglican ordinaries for converted Ashland who wish to retain their liturgy in the catholic church is it possible that such an initiative could be taken for concerts from other protestant confessions, even those who are “low church”, I’m sure there are those attached to low church liturgies as those attached to high church liturgies and traditions.

I don’t think so. You have to realize that the liturgical nature of worship is fundamental to Catholicism. So to allow churches that don’t have priesthoods, vestments and the like is a serious problem.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[Brendan_64]

In the years and decades after Apostolicae curae, Old Catholic bishops of undisputed apostolic lineage co-consecrated Anglican bishops and, in addition to the fact that no pope weighed in on the post-Edward VI forms of Anglican episcopal consecration, and no pope is likely to weigh in again officially on them, what you pose therefore is an open question.

It is not simply a case of Apostolic succession, the actual rite used to ‘ordain’ Anglican priests is in itself invalid as it negates the sacrificial nature of the priesthood. Therefore even if (hypothetically) the Pope himself (let alone a bishop from the Old Catholic church) was to attempt to ordain someone using the Anglican rite of ordination, it would be invalid and ordination would not take place.

It is not an open question, Anglican orders are absolutely null and void.

 

[filius_Immacula]

There could certainly be a Lutheran Ordinariate, as Lutheran churches have retained much of the Catholic liturgy. Perhaps even a Presbyterian Ordinariate. Baptists are more distant from Catholicism liturgically.

The theological issues are the biggest problem. Anyone entering into Communion with the Catholic or Orthodox Churches must accept all seven sacraments. Many modernist Protestants groups don’t accept any sacraments, even baptism.

The question refers to converts, so of course they would accept these things, they are Catholics, just like the Anglican ordinaries is catholic, so doctrine is of no issue in this, there are more protestant conveys than Anglican

 

[7_Sorrows]

However some of you are missing the point, namely that some high church Anglicans whom saw the necessity to rejoin with the Universal Church and took steps to do so. The Pope meantime made it possible for them to be reunited by offering them what they lacked.

Meantime other protestant denominations are farther away than those high church Anglicans hence it is quite a lot harder for the Pope to create a channel for reunification.

How can someone be brought into the fold that does not believe Baptism regenerates the soul and imprints an indelible mark in the soul of the baptised. Some Christians believe that Baptism is totally optional. “Accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour” saves you instead.

You do not need to belong to “the Church” it’s the Jesus and ME mentality, so prevalent in America.

The issues are so many and so deep theologically that it would be almost impossible for them to be brought back into the fold, never mind the fact that for many or them, the Pope is the Anti Christ hence they would never submit to his authority.
In the end it is up to us to show them the true meaning of being Catholic and by implication Christian and the Holy Spirit to move their harts to convert. After all, it was precisely the conversion of those High Church Anglicans that moved them to ask the Pope for admittance to the Church.

…

well said!

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t think so. You have to realize that the liturgical nature of worship is fundamental to Catholicism. So to allow churches that don’t have priesthoods, vestments and the like is a serious problem.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

exactly. the episcopal/anglican churches are liturgical, have priests and the sacraments. they believe in infant baptisms.

 

[filius_Immacula]

The Anglican Use ordinariates (and the pastoral provision that preceded the ordinariates by 30 years) are about much more than the liturgies they celebrate. It is about an entire patrimony that is properly theirs and that they have brought with them. And it is about them as a distinct group, existing under their own proper prelate.

It is not possible to have a “Protestant ordinariate” as such since the liturgies as well as the traditions are specific…they are not generic.

There are currently more than ten dialogues with specific groupings of the faithful at an international level that the Holy See is concurrently engaged in. That said, the original pastoral provision that brought forth the ordinariates was not the fruit of a dialogue, per se, as much as the spontaneous request of a group of priests of the Anglican Communion for a pastoral provision by the Holy See for themselves and their faithful to be able to live in full communion with the Bishop of Rome. Of course, the work of ARCIC had laid a significant groundwork but the critical role of individuals, such as Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Šeper, was critical for the pastoral provision coming into existence. The first group coming over were not unlike Abraham leaving his homeland and security to embark on a pilgrimage the destination of which was promised but the means and timings and vicissitudes not so sure.

It is certainly very possible that the ordinariate mechanism could be used again. I can imagine it happening in one particular instance especially – but, of course, it requires that those coming into full communion with Rome in such circumstance manifest a Catholic mind regarding the seven sacraments as well as the necessary ecclesiology. That is not a plausible expectation with several of the dialogue partners, once one reaches a certain point ecumenically and ecclesiologically.

If they come into full communion with Rome, why would they not have a catholic mind, regarding the seven sacraments, how else would they be in communion? Also ordinaries for separate EX protestants in communion with Rome and with a catholic mind, like ALL converts, who wish to retain their patrimony

 

[filius_Immacula]

However some of you are missing the point, namely that some high church Anglicans whom saw the necessity to rejoin with the Universal Church and took steps to do so. The Pope meantime made it possible for them to be reunited by offering them what they lacked.

Meantime other protestant denominations are farther away than those high church Anglicans hence it is quite a lot harder for the Pope to create a channel for reunification.

**How can someone be brought into the fold that does not believe Baptism regenerates the soul and imprints an indelible mark in the soul of the baptised. Some Christians believe that Baptism is totally optional. “Accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour” saves you instead.**You do not need to belong to “the Church” it’s the Jesus and ME mentality, so prevalent in America.

The issues are so many and so deep theologically that it would be almost impossible for them to be brought back into the fold, never mind the fact that for many or them, the Pope is the Anti Christ hence they would never submit to his authority.
In the end it is up to us to show them the true meaning of being Catholic and by implication Christian and the Holy Spirit to move their harts to convert. After all, it was precisely the conversion of those High Church Anglicans that moved them to ask the Pope for admittance to the Church.

…

I’d they are CONVERTED, which is the group mentioned, then those doctrinal issues would already be settled. They’re are more protestants converted than Ashland, you speak as if there are none, many protestants have come into the church accepting the sacraments, but they wish to retain their patrimony, didn’t pope emeritus benedict xvi talk abbot protestants, that is CONVERTED protestants retaining their traditions?

 

[7_Sorrows]

I’d they are CONVERTED, which is the group mentioned, then those doctrinal issues would already be settled. They’re are more protestants converted than Ashland, you speak as if there are none, many protestants have come into the church accepting the sacraments, but they wish to retain their patrimony, didn’t pope emeritus benedict xvi talk abbot protestants, that is CONVERTED protestants retaining their traditions?

Why do you keep saying Ashland? Is that your phone anticipating what you plan to write? Are you meaning Anglican?

Yes there are Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals who convert. You also have to look at history when it comes to the Church of England and the Anglican communion. England was a very Catholic country before King Henry VIII. King Henry was a good Catholic. When he started his church, he wanted it to remain as Catholic as possible even though he was declaring himself the head of the church. he did not try to invent a complete new church. Granted the king did not continue to live a very moral life and those following him made the church more protestant like, but creating the ordinariate for Anglicans allowed them to return to the fold and retain a beautiful liturgy reflecting the English language. I converted before the ordinariate was established. if there were one available where I live I would attend.

 

[Memaw]

It is not simply a case of Apostolic succession, the actual rite used to ‘ordain’ Anglican priests is in itself invalid as it negates the sacrificial nature of the priesthood. Therefore even if (hypothetically) the Pope himself (let alone a bishop from the Old Catholic church) was to attempt to ordain someone using the Anglican rite of ordination, it would be invalid and ordination would not take place.

It is not an open question, Anglican orders are absolutely null and void.

All those in the Anglican Ordinate had to convert to the Catholic Faith. It took years to bring this into where it is today. They are Catholic now and united with the Catholic Faith. Their priests are fully ordained Catholic Priests. God Bless them all, Memaw