Protestant Ordination - By what authority?

[cjaubert]

It seems to me that a major problem in Catholic-Protestant debates is that of authority. The Catholic Church claims it was created by Jesus Christ himself and that it is the pillar and foundation of truth because Jesus gave it this authority (e.g., 1 Tim 3:15 and Matt 16:18), and I accept that. I wonder, though, by what authority do Protestant pastors (ministers? clergy?) get their authority? Is it because they give it to themselves? If not, who gives them authority to teach faith and morals? And, by what authority do the “authority-givers” give that authority? I guess the bottom line is, who says that a Protestant minister has the right to lead a church?

 

[RyanL]

As I am most familiar with the Baptists, I will tell you that there is an election of a new pastor by the congregation. The ecclesial community as a whole decides if the man is the right one for the job of sheparding their flock. Kinda’ like the election of a Pope, they believe that they are being led by God in this decision and much praying about it occurs. They also believe their pastor is being led by the Holy Spirit in his scriptural selections, studies, and sermons.

Ordination? Not quite sure. I think this comes at the conclusion of your Masters of Divinity education (i.e., you pay to become a pastor, and anyone who can crack open a book is afforded the opportunity). I don’t believe there is any vocational screening, but I may be wrong.

God bless,
RyanL

 

[Fiat]

There is an interesting article called “By What Authority” written by Jacob Michael. Here is the link: lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=37

Peace
Fiat

 

[Kay_Cee]

I’ve often wondered how they justify their process of selecting ministers if they’re going by the Bible alone. Where does the Bible cover this? Can someone enlighten me?

I’m not talking about apostolic succession; I’m talking about the Protestant process.

 

[scylla]

St Francis de Sales in the book “The Catholic Controversy” dedicates a whole portion of his book addressing this in a very comprehensive way. This is not a plug for Tan books I just really like this book, a great addition to any bookshelf.

I would take a look and get a copy if you can, he gives a well reasoned explanation for the Catholic faith and is a great inspiration and tool for understanding authority, and many other issues that divide us.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Lillith]

I am surrounded by Baptists, and they will tell you that the Holy Spirit calls a person to the ministry and also gives them the authority…

 

[Kay_Cee]

Lillith:

I am surrounded by Baptists, and they will tell you that the Holy Spirit calls a person to the ministry and also gives them the authority…

But where do they get the idea that this is to be the process by which leaders are to be selected? Where does the Bible say this is the proper way?

Still having some problem reconciling this with sola scriptura.

 

[Angainor]

Kay Cee:

I’ve often wondered how they justify their process of selecting ministers if they’re going by the Bible alone. Where does the Bible cover this? Can someone enlighten me?

I’m not talking about apostolic succession; I’m talking about the Protestant process.

I think it would be helpful to start with the correct terminology. Cjaubert posed the question “By what authority?”

“Authority” really is a misleading word. Protestant ministers do not have in thier possesion any special authority to be a minister or to adminisiter the sacraments or anything else.

Take, for example, the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus said “Do this in rememberence of me” he was talking to his people. When his people come to worship, they should celebrate the sacrament.

As a Lutheran, I believe that is not the minister’s position as minister that enables him to concecrate the Sacrament of the Altar. The words of institution are the only authority required to concecrate the Lord’s Supper.

As a Lutheran, I also know that the Lord’s Supper is a very serious matter. To not give the proper respect is a grave sin. Therefore we have found it a wise move to entrust the administration of the Sacrament to trained professionals.

Ministers are ordained by the church heirarchy. In this way, they are given permission by the church to be a minister. Ministers are also called by individual congregations. In this way, they are given permission by the local congregation to be their minister. Think of it as a teacher. The teacher has the school board’s and parent’s permission to teach their child, but the teacher does not possess some kind of inherent “authority” to teach.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Angainor:

Ministers are ordained by the church heirarchy. In this way, they are given permission by the church to be a minister. Ministers are also called by individual congregations. In this way, they are given permission by the local congregation to be their minister. Think of it as a teacher. The teacher has the school board’s and parent’s permission to teach their child, but the teacher does not possess some kind of inherent “authority” to teach.

Thank you so much for the response.

I still don’t see where this is in the Bible, though. Where does the Bible say that ministers are to be ordained by the church heirarchy? Where does it say that they should be given permission by the church to be a minister?

Catholics can appeal to Tradition, but I don’t see how a sola scriptura person can come to conclusions like this without going outside scripture.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Angainor:

Ministers are ordained by the church heirarchy. In this way, they are given permission by the church to be a minister. Ministers are also called by individual congregations. In this way, they are given permission by the local congregation to be their minister. Think of it as a teacher. The teacher has the school board’s and parent’s permission to teach their child, but the teacher does not possess some kind of inherent “authority” to teach.

But where does the church heirarchy get its authority?

 

[Angainor]

Kay Cee:

But where does the church heirarchy get its authority?

What “authority”?

 

[jimmy]

Angainor:

What “authority”?

Apostolic succession says that the Church has authority that has been handed on through the bishops to Ordain successors and to teach. The Lutheran Church has no connection to that succession, so there authority is self given. The heirarchy has no authority to ordain preists.

 

[Angainor]

jimmy:

Apostolic succession says that the Church has authority that has been handed on through the bishops to Ordain successors and to teach. The Lutheran Church has no connection to that succession, so there authority is self given. The heirarchy has no authority to ordain preists.

It also claims no such authority. Ministers require no “official” authorization to be ministers.

The Lutheran Church does give permission for Lutheran ministers to minister in Lutheran Churches, but this is different.

 

[jimmy]

Angainor:

It also claims no such authority. Ministers require no “official” authorization to be ministers.

The Lutheran Church does give permission for Lutheran ministers to minister in Lutheran Churches, but this is different.

No, you are quite wrong. As Ignatius says, " Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.57 " [Ignatius to the Smyrnians]

As the above quote shows, the Lutherans can not have ministers of the Eucharist because they have no bishops in succession from the apostles.

 

[Angainor]

jimmy:

No, you are quite wrong. As Ignatius says, " Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.57 " [Ignatius to the Smyrnians]

As the above quote shows, the Lutherans can not have ministers of the Eucharist because they have no bishops in succession from the apostles.

Well, I have questions about that.

“Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.”

I assume that means there are some Eucharists deemed “improper”. Are Eucharists deemed improper still Eucharists? Is a baptism perfomed unlawfully still a baptism?

 

[jimmy]

Angainor:

Well, I have questions about that.

“Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.”

I assume that means there are some Eucharists deemed “improper”. Are Eucharists deemed improper still Eucharists? Is a baptism perfomed unlawfully still a baptism?

It would no longer be the Eucharist. Baptisms are not declared unlawfull because the bishops have allowed that a lay person may do a baptism if necisary. You are dodging the question. The point is, your preists have no authority to have the Eucharist.

You are also trying to bring up the idea that someone who does not have the authority still can confect the Eucharist. Christ gave his authority to specific men. If you are in opposition to those men, you have no authority and can not confect the Eucharist. Christ is the High Preist, He is the one that gives it the true presence. You are going against His authority.

 

[cjaubert]

Angainor:

Ministers are ordained by the church heirarchy. In this way, they are given permission by the church to be a minister. Ministers are also called by individual congregations.

You see, this is the whole point of my question: What gives “the church heirarchy” the authority to ordain the minister? Is it just because it is their church - “this is our church and we will ordain whoever we want to be our minister”? Or, is there some higher authority?

 

[EA_Man]

cjaubert:

It seems to me that a major problem in Catholic-Protestant debates is that of authority. The Catholic Church claims it was created by Jesus Christ himself and that it is the pillar and foundation of truth because Jesus gave it this authority (e.g., 1 Tim 3:15 and Matt 16:18), and I accept that. I wonder, though, by what authority do Protestant pastors (ministers? clergy?) get their authority? Is it because they give it to themselves? If not, who gives them authority to teach faith and morals? And, by what authority do the “authority-givers” give that authority? I guess the bottom line is, who says that a Protestant minister has the right to lead a church?

If the RCC views other denominations as valid (though less tha n perfect) means of salvation, then it would follow that ordination in Protestant denominations must also be be “valid though less than perfect”.

Interesting.

Peace

 

[Angainor]

jimmy:

It would no longer be the Eucharist.

So say you. I wonder if Mr. Ignatius would agree. He said some Eucharists are deemed proper Eucharists. I must assume he believed some Eucharists were **improper **(but still Eucharists). He could have said simply “Only bishops or someone entrusted by the bishop can administer the Eucharist”. He didn’t.

jimmy:

You are also trying to bring up the idea that someone who does not have the authority still can confect the Eucharist.

Absolutely, that is what I am saying. I would go further and say that no person has “authority”. Authority belongs to God and his words of institution.

 

[Angainor]

cjaubert:

You see, this is the whole point of my question: What gives “the church heirarchy” the authority to ordain the minister? Is it just because it is their church - “this is our church and we will ordain whoever we want to be our minister”? Or, is there some higher authority?

"The church heirarchy claims no authority.

Lutheran Church heirarchy does not pretend to be able to declare that Baptist ministers are not ministers or Catholic Priests are not ministers. The church heirarchy does not pretend to say who is a minister and who isn’t.

The Lutheran Church does say that Baptist ministers and Catholic Priests cannot be ministers in Lutheran Churches. That doesn’t take any “authority”.