Protestant Ordination - By what authority?

[Angainor]

StCsDavid:

Those who followed Paul, Peter, or Appollos weren’t practicing different faiths. There wasn’t a church of Paul or a church of Apollos…

You conveniently left out Peter. There apparently wasn’t a church of Peter either. That was the main point I was making. You asked if Paul recognized Peter as the authoritative head of the Church, [post=857939]this passage[/post] from 1 Corinthians suggests not.

StCsDavid:

Was Paul not writing to the Church in Corinth? Was he not encourgaing his brothers and sister to be united?

Encourage is the operative word. Today the Catholic idea of uniting is to “encourage” non-Catholics to submit to Papal authority. Paul says: “No more boasting about men!”

Paul does not appeal to a human authority, he appeals to the independant truth:
Now brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying “Do not go beyond what is written” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
1 Corinthians 4:6
This is what Luther attempted to do, that is, not go beyond what is written.

If the Church today is not united, those who say “I follow Peter” are as much to blame as those who say “I follow Paul” or “I follow Apollos”.

 

[StCsDavid]

Angainor:

Paul does not appeal to a human authority, he appeals to the independant truth:Now brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying “Do not go beyond what is written” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
1 Corinthians 4:6
This is what Luther attempted to do, that is, not go beyond what is written.

My dear friend, when Paul wrote this…the Gospels were not yet written? When Paul wrote this, the Corinthians didn’t see this letter as sacred scripture. It was a communication piece. You are injecting context to prove your point, but it just doesn’t hold up if you are sincerely applying so literal a translation. And if you are, then how do you refute Christ founding his Church upon Peter? How do you deny the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? You can’t apply a literal translation in one area and then not apply it in other areas.

 

[jimmy]

Angainor:

Paul does not appeal to a human authority, he appeals to the independant truth:Now brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying “Do not go beyond what is written” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

1 Corinthians 4:6

This is what Luther attempted to do, that is, not go beyond what is written.

If the Church today is not united, those who say “I follow Peter” are as much to blame as those who say “I follow Paul” or “I follow Apollos”.

Then why did he submit to the council of Jerusalem in Acts15? If you do not follow Peter, you do not follow Paul either.

 

[Angainor]

jimmy:

Then why did he [Paul] submit to the council of Jerusalem in Acts15?

Submit? There was no need to “submit”. Everyone agreed to the wisdom of the assembly.

Just look what is happening. Peter and James put forth theological arguments to the whole assembly as to why they should believe what they were saying was true. Barnabas and Paul witnessed to actual events among the Gentiles. After this was done, a decision was made. The decision was made by the apostles, elders, and the whole church (verse 22). The letter that was sent out read “So we all agreed to… (verse 25)”, I can only assume Paul agreed as well. There was agreement, not a decree.

The events in Acts 15 make it clear to me that the church leaders went to great lengths to avoid submitting others to their will. They sought Truth rationally and worked to convince others. This it true unity.

Unity by submission is a false unity. Someone may submit to the authority of the church but remain unconvinced deep in their hearts. That person is only partially united, at best.

 

[SATEX]

Angainor.
I do hope we all are trying to learn.

I find your statements of scripture do not does not comply to both Catholic or Protestant scripture.

MAT. NAB]
16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16:16 * Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

16:17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood * has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, * and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. * Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Mat. [KJV]
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Christ was addressing Peter.

Act 15. As then and as now, the Apostles meet and come to a agreement and the leader of Christ’s Church make the announcment and it become the Word of God.

We all should follow Christ to be Christians. To follow Christ is to follow His commands and His Church in whom He gave authority.

If you do not follow Christ are you NOT A CHRISTIAN?

 

[Angainor]

SATEX:

We all should follow Christ to be Christians. To follow Christ is to follow His commands and His Church in whom He gave authority.

It is fine for us almost 2000 years later to use try to guess if Jesus gave authority to Peter with those words.

I think it is more useful to try to figure out if the Apostles thought Jesus gave authority to Peter. It appears to me from 1 Corinthians and Acts 15 that the Apostles did not think Jesus gave authority to Peter.

 

[cjaubert]

Angainor:

They sought Truth rationally…

Angainor, your references to 1 Cor. and Acts 15, to me, hardly represent “thus saith the Lord” observations. Nevertheless, why do you insist on giving a fractured and irrational reading to Matthew 16:18-19, and not look at it rationally? (I could ask the same question for John 6 and many other passages, but that would be a different thread.)

 

[RyanL]

Angainor,

If Peter wasn’t in charge, could you please tell me what Christ was doing in John 21:15-19:

15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah,**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 21&version=50#fen-NKJV-26908b”)] do you love Me more than these?”
He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”
16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah,c] do you love Me?”
He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”
17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah,d] do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”
And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”
Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep. 18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”

Let’s look at just one more verse, John 10:

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Ok. Recap. Jesus tells Peter to shepherd his flock. Three times. Just Peter. Which flock? Christ’s flock. How many sheep belong to Christ? ALL of them. One flock. One shepherd. And that shepherd is Peter while Christ is away. That’s what happened. Do you have any other logical way to understand the clear reading of these texts, which compliments Matt 16:18-19 perfectly?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Angainor]

cjaubert:

Angainor, your references to 1 Cor. and Acts 15, to me, hardly represent “thus saith the Lord” observations. Nevertheless, why do you insist on giving a fractured and irrational reading to Matthew 16:18-19, and not look at it rationally? (I could ask the same question for John 6 and many other passages, but that would be a different thread.)

It is useful for us to turn to passages to Matthew 16:18-19, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. Did Jesus mean to give Peter authority in those verses? After nearly 2000 years it is hard to tell for sure.

That is why I think it is appropriate to try to figure out if the Apostles believed Jesus gave Peter authority. 1 Cor & Acts 15 may not be “thus saith the Lord” observations, but I think they give very good clues.

 

[Angainor]

RyanL:

Angainor,

If Peter wasn’t in charge, could you please tell me what Christ was doing in John 21:15-19:

Let’s look at just one more verse, John 10:

Ok. Recap. Jesus tells Peter to shepherd his flock. Three times. Just Peter. Which flock? Christ’s flock. How many sheep belong to Christ? ALL of them. One flock. One shepherd. And that shepherd is Peter while Christ is away. That’s what happened. Do you have any other logical way to understand the clear reading of these texts, which compliments Matt 16:18-19 perfectly?

God Bless,
RyanL

In John 10, Jesus establishes himself as the good shepherd. Jesus himself is the “one shepherd” mentioned in John 10:16. Jesus is not giving up the title of shepherd when he said “Feed my sheep”.
I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."
John 21:18 (NIV)
Does that sound like Jesus is giving Peter authority? Authority to be led around where he does not want to go?

 

[RyanL]

Angainor:

Does that sound like Jesus is giving Peter authority? Authority to be led around where he does not want to go?

Quite frankly, yes it does. WHO will lead Peter? How about the Holy Spirit? Infallibly. Or how about the Romans, who crucified Peter upside-down? Think Peter wanted that? That is exactly what is being spoken of with the “strech out your hands” bit. Read the following verse for conclusion.

You didn’t respond as to the preceeding verses where Jesus COMMANDS Peter to “Tend His sheep”. Who tends the sheep? The shepherd. While Jesus is bodily away from the flock, Peter is to guide them.

You will have to give an alternate understanding to refute this.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[SATEX]

ANGAINOR

The way I look at it is that you are trying to tell me that black is white and white is black. I pointed out that you must be using another text due to your quotes do no correspond to Either Catholic or Protestant scriptures translations.

At this point I do not think there is enough good faith in finding the truth in scripture so we have to agree to disagree and move on.

Richard

 

[Angainor]

RyanL:

Quite frankly, yes it does. WHO will lead Peter? How about the Holy Spirit? Infallibly.

Interesting, it never really occured to me that Peter might have his freewill taken away, but I guess that is one way to read the passage
I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."
John 21:18 (NIV)
“Going where he wanted” might refer to Peter’s freewill. If the Holy Spirit truely leads Peter around, then he might be infallible. That is a radical notion. My knee-jerk reaction is “no-way”, but I will think on it some more. However, even if I come to accept this, it would be a 2000 year leap of faith for me to accept the man called pope has also lost his freewill.

I took “someone else will lead you where you do not want to go” simply as Peter humbly accepting that others wisdom might sometimes be greater than his own, and he might be led to another opinion then he origionally had through discussions like the one in Acts 15.