Protestant paranoia

[EIF5A]

Much of the fear comes from the lack of understanding between what constitutes worship vs. veneration/honor. IMHO, it’s due to zealous, yet misplaced, understanding and knowledge.

And I’m guessing a good portion of that is due to the fact that Protestants are not familiar with patristic writings and understanding of the early church.

And throw in the fact that there are cultural differences and language nuances (literal vs. poetic) that can lead to misunderstanding.

In Scripture, people have bowed before God and also before people. So if not the physical act of bowing, what makes the former worship and the latter giving honor?

I think if this can be properly communicated, much (most) (all?) of the misconceptions can be cleared away.

(OK, I guess there’s the whole Sacred Tradition elephant in the room to contend with, but it’s a start…)

 

[MarshallJackson]

Much of the fear comes from the lack of understanding between what constitutes worship vs. veneration/honor. IMHO, it’s due to zealous, yet misplaced, understanding and knowledge.

And I’m guessing a good portion of that is due to the fact that Protestants are not familiar with patristic writings and understanding of the early church.

And throw in the fact that there are cultural differences and language nuances (literal vs. poetic) that can lead to misunderstanding.

In Scripture, people have bowed before God and also before people. So if not the physical act of bowing, what makes the former worship and the latter giving honor?

I think if this can be properly communicated, much (most) (all?) of the misconceptions can be cleared away.

(OK, I guess there’s the whole Sacred Tradition elephant in the room to contend with, but it’s a start…)

Honestly, I think it is mostly from that of which this thread is titled. Paranoia. I come from a Protestant family, and am in the later stages of RCIA in order to be initiated into the Catholic Church. My family highly struggles with the differentiating between “worship” and “veneration”

I have found it very interesting though, and I say this with the utmost respect for all other denominations of Christianity (we are all Christians for the same reason), that although there is such a scare coming from the fact that we venerate Mary, they have no problem in following and worshiping in the way that other men have taught them to. Are we not doing one in the same by following and worshipping in the same devoted way that Mary did? We do not worship her, we simply hold a general respect and realization that she played a very important role in our Christian faith!

We ask Mary to pray for us just as we would ask any other fellow Christian to pray for us, and understanding the fact that she was the mother of Jesus Christ, her prayers have to be pretty important!

My guess is that Lutherans probably hold Martin Luther as a pretty important person in their denomination, as he is who it is named after, and the person who started it. Likewise, I’m sure Calvinists hold John Calvin to be a pretty important person! Now are they worshipping Martin Luther or John Calvin? No! They are worshipping Christ just like the rest of us!

I think certain Protestants beliefs of sola scriptura is where these things are sparked. Tradition usually isn’t recognized as much, if at all. This is why they are so wary when they hear something they haven’t seen in their beginning and ending, tangible book of knowledge.

In the Catholic faith, it isn’t thought that we can fit all of the knowledge and truths about God into one book.

 

[MaryT777]

Honestly, I think it is mostly from that of which this thread is titled. Paranoia. I come from a Protestant family, and am in the later stages of RCIA in order to be initiated into the Catholic Church. My family highly struggles with the differentiating between “worship” and “veneration”

I have found it very interesting though, and I say this with the utmost respect for all other denominations of Christianity (we are all Christians for the same reason), that although there is such a scare coming from the fact that we venerate Mary, they have no problem in following and worshiping in the way that other men have taught them to. Are we not doing one in the same by following and worshipping in the same devoted way that Mary did? We do not worship her, we simply hold a general respect and realization that she played a very important role in our Christian faith!

We ask Mary to pray for us just as we would ask any other fellow Christian to pray for us, and understanding the fact that she was the mother of Jesus Christ, her prayers have to be pretty important!

My guess is that Lutherans probably hold Martin Luther as a pretty important person in their denomination, as he is who it is named after, and the person who started it. Likewise, I’m sure Calvinists hold John Calvin to be a pretty important person! Now are they worshipping Martin Luther or John Calvin? No! They are worshipping Christ just like the rest of us!

I think certain Protestants beliefs of sola scriptura is where these things are sparked. Tradition usually isn’t recognized as much, if at all. This is why they are so wary when they hear something they haven’t seen in their beginning and ending, tangible book of knowledge.

In the Catholic faith, it isn’t thought that we can fit all of the knowledge and truths about God into one book.

Well said.

 

[Monergistic]

In Scripture, people have bowed before God and also before people. So if not the physical act of bowing, what makes the former worship and the latter giving honor?

There isn’t anybody walking the face of this earth that I would be willing to bow down to. If anyone asks me to, my reaction could range from losing respect for someone to maybe fighting them.

Granted, people have bowed before people in the past. There is a Scriptural basis for seeing it as fairly neutral at times. But far more recently, modern sensibilities have developed that are opposed to this being requested as something done person to person. It’s an act that has developed into a person-to-God act with great exclusivity. There isn’t much in the way of Scripture behind it, but there is some emotion that is deeply felt.

This isn’t an example of SS in action. This is actually an example of Protestants making rules. I think this would qualify as Protestant tradition that’s equally wrapped up in culture at large. There are some exceptions, of course, particularly among Protestants who desire to retain some outward appearances of Catholicity. But on the whole, there is a fairly strong tendency to believe that whoever you are, whoever you think you are, however much I like you or respect you aside from this, you don’t ask me to bow to you. That’s something I won’t do, the only way I would is with a gun to my head, and even then you better put some distance between me and you because I’d try to disarm you first. Does this come from Scripture? No. Not directly, not even indirectly so much. It comes from me. From us. Same way bowing to statues comes from you. You have that thing and some strong feelings to go with it, and we have strong feelings about bowing to anything besides God. We don’t feel like this is arbitrary, and we do feel like we’re right. So do you- but then so do we.

 

[EIF5A]

Honestly, I think it is mostly from that of which this thread is titled. Paranoia. I come from a Protestant family, and am in the later stages of RCIA in order to be initiated into the Catholic Church. My family highly struggles with the differentiating between “worship” and “veneration”

I have found it very interesting though, and I say this with the utmost respect for all other denominations of Christianity (we are all Christians for the same reason), that although there is such a scare coming from the fact that we venerate Mary, they have no problem in following and worshiping in the way that other men have taught them to. Are we not doing one in the same by following and worshipping in the same devoted way that Mary did? We do not worship her, we simply hold a general respect and realization that she played a very important role in our Christian faith!

We ask Mary to pray for us just as we would ask any other fellow Christian to pray for us, and understanding the fact that she was the mother of Jesus Christ, her prayers have to be pretty important!

My guess is that Lutherans probably hold Martin Luther as a pretty important person in their denomination, as he is who it is named after, and the person who started it. Likewise, I’m sure Calvinists hold John Calvin to be a pretty important person! Now are they worshipping Martin Luther or John Calvin? No! They are worshipping Christ just like the rest of us!

I think certain Protestants beliefs of sola scriptura is where these things are sparked. Tradition usually isn’t recognized as much, if at all. This is why they are so wary when they hear something they haven’t seen in their beginning and ending, tangible book of knowledge.

In the Catholic faith, it isn’t thought that we can fit all of the knowledge and truths about God into one book.

But when Catholics pray to Mary to “Save us”, if one is not aware of the context, one can misconstrue that as saying, well, Save us, in the sense that only God can do.

And the Co-mediatrix doctrine (maybe dogma in the future?) does not alleviate the misunderstanding.

I suppose Catholics and Orthodox can pray to Mary/Theotokos “Pray/intercede for us” exclusively to get rid of any linguistic confusion, but then there’s that whole tradition thing where you can’t just change things.

And I have yet to find a good explanation as to how one worships (latria) vs. venerates (e.g., hyperdulia).

Also, what do you mean “in the same devoted way that Mary did” when the issue is Marian veneration?

 

[EIF5A]

Exactly. Feelings.

One can bow to a person as a sign of honor but not feel as though that person is God.

IMHO, if bowing causes one to harbor feelings of worship, then one should not do that to any created being. But if someone else can bow and stop at the feeling of respect and honor, then so be it.

But I guess it’s hard to judge your own heart, let alone someone else’s.

 

[pablope]

There isn’t anybody walking the face of this earth that I would be willing to bow down to. If anyone asks me to, my reaction could range from losing respect for someone to maybe fighting them.

Granted, people have bowed before people in the past. There is a Scriptural basis for seeing it as fairly neutral at times. But far more recently, modern sensibilities have developed that are opposed to this being requested as something done person to person. It’s an act that has developed into a person-to-God act with great exclusivity. There isn’t much in the way of Scripture behind it, but there is some emotion that is deeply felt.

This isn’t an example of SS in action. This is actually an example of Protestants making rules. I think this would qualify as Protestant tradition that’s equally wrapped up in culture at large. There are some exceptions, of course, particularly among Protestants who desire to retain some outward appearances of Catholicity. But on the whole, there is a fairly strong tendency to believe that whoever you are, whoever you think you are, however much I like you or respect you aside from this, you don’t ask me to bow to you. That’s something I won’t do, the only way I would is with a gun to my head, and even then you better put some distance between me and you because I’d try to disarm you first. Does this come from Scripture? No. Not directly, not even indirectly so much. It comes from me. From us. Same way bowing to statues comes from you. You have that thing and some strong feelings to go with it, and we have strong feelings about bowing to anything besides God. We don’t feel like this is arbitrary, and we do feel like we’re right. So do you- but then so do we.

In Japan, bowing is the cultural sign of respect. If one does not bow, one shows disrepect.

So example you are in Japan, would you then refuse to do as the culture does? You would rather not bow and have them see (through their eyes) you as being disrespectful?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Much of the fear comes from the lack of understanding between what constitutes worship vs. veneration/honor. IMHO, it’s due to zealous, yet misplaced, understanding and knowledge.

And I’m guessing a good portion of that is due to the fact that Protestants are not familiar with patristic writings and understanding of the early church.

And throw in the fact that there are cultural differences and language nuances (literal vs. poetic) that can lead to misunderstanding.

In Scripture, people have bowed before God and also before people. So if not the physical act of bowing, what makes the former worship and the latter giving honor?

I think if this can be properly communicated, much (most) (all?) of the misconceptions can be cleared away.

(OK, I guess there’s the whole Sacred Tradition elephant in the room to contend with, but it’s a start…)

The problem today is, as Fr. Tom Hopko laid it out in one of his podcasts, “the toothpaste is out of the tube.” That is, most people know what the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church teaches about many things. But the proper way to understand Christian faith is to understand Christ first. People coming into Catholicism or Orthodoxy who start by asking questions about Mary, the rest of the saints, the Sacraments, etc., are getting way ahead of themselves. Go back to basics. Understand Christ first according to these traditions.

In Holy Orthodoxy, the Sacraments, the Saints, all makes sense and are very simple to understand if your foundation on Christ is firm. So start by re-learning about Christ first, and not worry about everything else. Once you have developed that way of thinking, that understanding about Christ based on ancient Apostolic tradition, everything else becomes easy.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Tis two sides to this coin, and so too well documented from very early in the Church.

Origen- “Heretics, all begin by believing, and afterwards depart from the road of faith and the truth of the church’s teaching.”

In their pride, the heretics search the holy Scriptures, not to discover the truth, but to confirm their own doctrines.

Cardinal Henri de Lubac,

"One must receive the faith of God in the spirit which the church teaches us, and must not do like the heretics who search the Scriptures only in order to find some confirmation of their own doctrines.

Their pride raises them “higher than the cedars of Lebanon” and their sophistries are full of deceit. But it is no use for them to pretend that they have a tradition which comes down from the apostles; they are professors of error.

While the faithful Christian in no way strays from the great tradition, they appeal to secret Scriptures or to secret traditions in order to confirm their lies. Thus they want to make us worship a Christ whom they have invented “in solitude,” while the only authentic Christ reveals Himself “within the house.”

They disfigure those vessels of gold and silver which are the sacred texts, in order to fashion them into objects according to their own fancy.

They are thieves and adulterers who seize the divine words only to deform them by their perverse interpretations.

They are counterfeiters for they have coined their doctrine outside the Church. False teachers, false prophets, spinning out of their own minds what they propound, they are the liars of whom Ezekiel speaks. By a perverse trickery they often cover their idols, that is, their empty dogmas, with sweetness and chastity so that their propositions may be smuggled more easily into the ears of their listeners and lead them astray more surely.

They all call Jesus their master and embrace him; but their kiss is the kiss of Judas.

And this also we must know that as the gates of cities have each their own names, in the same way the gates of Hades might be named after the species of sins; so that one gate of Hades is called “fornication,” through which fornicators go, and another “denial,” through which the deniers of God go down into Hades. And likewise already each of the heterodox and of those who have begotten any “knowledge which is falsely so called (I Tim. 6:20),” has built a gate of Hades - Marcion one gate, and Basilides another, and Valentinus another.

The deceiver enemy, the devil, presents stone instead of bread (Luke 11:11). This is what the devil wants, that the stone may be changed into bread, so that men may be fed not by bread but by stone which has the shape of the bread.

If you see the heretics eat their false teachings as bread know that their discussions, and teaching are a stone which the devil presents to us to eat as if it is bread. . .

May we be watchful and so not eat the stone of the devil believing that we are growing up by the Lord’s bread.

The devil speaks and depends upon the Scripture… May he not deceive me even if he uses the Scripture."

That’s the other side of the coin which seems to support Tradition “along” with Scripture in regards to idols and correct formation in Christs Church. Yes paranoia runs on both sides.

 

[MarshallJackson]

But when Catholics pray to Mary to “Save us”, if one is not aware of the context, one can misconstrue that as saying, well, Save us, in the sense that only God can do.

And the Co-mediatrix doctrine (maybe dogma in the future?) does not alleviate the misunderstanding.

I suppose Catholics and Orthodox can pray to Mary/Theotokos “Pray/intercede for us” exclusively to get rid of any linguistic confusion, but then there’s that whole tradition thing where you can’t just change things.

And I have yet to find a good explanation as to how one worships (latria) vs. venerates (e.g., hyperdulia).

Also, what do you mean “in the same devoted way that Mary did” when the issue is Marian veneration?

Yes, I can see where the confusion can come into play when the context isn’t taken into account. I am not disputing the fact that misunderstandings on this topic easily arise.

I worship The Triune God. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, one God. I worship Christ as my savior who died for all of our sins so that we might be saved.

To me, worshipping Christ means to give your heart to him. God, and God alone, has the ability to answer our prayers. We owe it all to him.

Venerate means to hold a high level of respect for someone. Why did I say “in the same devoted way that Mary did”? Mary was very devoted to her faith. So devoted that, as a girl who had never known man, she accepted that she would birth Jesus. That is a huge responsibility and a mind boggling idea to grasp! But she accepted nonetheless! Not to mention she was without sin her entire life. I wish to be as closely devoted to God as Mary was. So in that sense, she is like a role model. Aka. a venerated person, held with high respect, etc.
She is not on the same level as God, or any of the three distinct persons that together make up the one God. She isn’t the one answering our prayers. God is.

As I said before, I am still in the RCIA process, so I am telling you what I have learned thus far, and from experiencing the questions asked by my parents and the rest of my family. I am not disputing the fact that it can be a complicated subject, I am simply telling you from how I have come to understand it. I hope I have helped in some way.

God bless!

 

[Monergistic]

In Japan, bowing is the cultural sign of respect. If one does not bow, one shows disrepect.

So example you are in Japan, would you then refuse to do as the culture does? You would rather not bow and have them see (through their eyes) you as being disrespectful?

I’d bow at the waist, I’ll even do the thing with the hands in front despite not really knowing exactly what that means, but if anyone asks me to bow Down, I’ll decline- and I’ll do so more respectfully than I otherwise would if it’s a difference in cultures.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Lutherans bow to the altar; some bow when the name “Jesus” is mentioned in the liturgy or when the processional cross passes. Clergy and laity bow to each other when the offerings and elements are brought forward. We bow our heads in prayer, etc.

I can not imagine how that gesture could be viewed as anti-Scripture.

 

[Guilou67]

There isn’t anybody walking the face of this earth that I would be willing to bow down to. If anyone asks me to, my reaction could range from losing respect for someone to maybe fighting them.

Granted, people have bowed before people in the past. There is a Scriptural basis for seeing it as fairly neutral at times. But far more recently, modern sensibilities have developed that are opposed to this being requested as something done person to person. It’s an act that has developed into a person-to-God act with great exclusivity. There isn’t much in the way of Scripture behind it, but there is some emotion that is deeply felt.

This isn’t an example of SS in action. This is actually an example of Protestants making rules. I think this would qualify as Protestant tradition that’s equally wrapped up in culture at large. There are some exceptions, of course, particularly among Protestants who desire to retain some outward appearances of Catholicity. But on the whole, there is a fairly strong tendency to believe that whoever you are, whoever you think you are, however much I like you or respect you aside from this, you don’t ask me to bow to you. That’s something I won’t do, the only way I would is with a gun to my head, and even then you better put some distance between me and you because I’d try to disarm you first. Does this come from Scripture? No. Not directly, not even indirectly so much. It comes from me. From us. Same way bowing to statues comes from you. You have that thing and some strong feelings to go with it, and we have strong feelings about bowing to anything besides God. We don’t feel like this is arbitrary, and we do feel like we’re right. So do you- but then so do we.

Wow, a gun to your head will make you bow before someone who is not God even if you don’t want to do it.Huuuummmmmmmmm. You need to read some books about the Catholic Martyr Saints, and you will see how happy they would have been to have that gun shot in their head for Jesus. They would not try to off the gun nor to try to disarm the person with the gun. We are pretty peaceful and prayerful in the true church of God.

 

[Guilou67]

I’d bow at the waist, I’ll even do the thing with the hands in front despite not really knowing exactly what that means, but if anyone asks me to bow Down, I’ll decline- and I’ll do so more respectfully than I otherwise would if it’s a difference in cultures.

But you said you will never bow before anyone. You should always think before speaking. Culture or not you said you will never bow. PERIOD!!!

 

[campeador]

Lutherans bow to the altar; some bow when the name “Jesus” is mentioned in the liturgy or when the processional cross passes. Clergy and laity bow to each other when the offerings and elements are brought forward. We bow our heads in prayer, etc.

I can not imagine how that gesture could be viewed as anti-Scripture.

This.

Catholic example: youtube.com/watch?v=_RE5USzhhVA

 

[Monergistic]

But you said you will never bow before anyone. You should always think before speaking. Culture or not you said you will never bow. PERIOD!!!

In fairness, I didn’t say “bow before,” but “bow down.” Like when Beyonce acknowledged how much her young female fans want to be like her, have what she’s gained, do as much as she’s accomplished, then tells them “bow down.” That doesn’t get mistaken for a sign of cultural respect; it is what it is.

Thank you for following up for clarity, though, I may not have been talking about bowing in exactly the same way that the rest of you were.

 

[joe371]

Much of the fear comes from the lack of understanding between what constitutes worship vs. veneration/honor. IMHO, it’s due to zealous, yet misplaced, understanding and knowledge.

And I’m guessing a good portion of that is due to the fact that Protestants are not familiar with patristic writings and understanding of the early church.

And throw in the fact that there are cultural differences and language nuances (literal vs. poetic) that can lead to misunderstanding.

In Scripture, people have bowed before God and also before people. So if not the physical act of bowing, what makes the former worship and the latter giving honor?

I think if this can be properly communicated, much (most) (all?) of the misconceptions can be cleared away.

(OK, I guess there’s the whole Sacred Tradition elephant in the room to contend with, but it’s a start…)

I sure wish some of my family members would read this post. Nicely stated…

 

[pablope]

I’d bow at the waist, I’ll even do the thing with the hands in front despite not really knowing exactly what that means, but if anyone asks me to bow Down, I’ll decline- and I’ll do so more respectfully than I otherwise would if it’s a difference in cultures.

What do you mean by “bow down”? How does one “bow down” according to you?

 

[Monergistic]

What do you mean by “bow down”? How does one “bow down” according to you?

The type of bowing where you’re in a prostate position.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Part of this discussion is the issue of the Real Presence. If one believes that Christ is fully presence in the sacrament, it is understandable that the individual would bow down and kneel in awe and gratitude.