Protestant Pickle

[Odell]

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison”. These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

This passage states there is a place other than Heaven and Hell.(Purgatory) If Protestants believe that this place no longer exists, then they believe something that is not biblical.

What you think? Is this a stumper?

 

[Penitus]

How is that believing in something unbiblical? I think that most Protestants would agree that this “prison” or “limbo of our fathers” existed at one point, even if they do not believe it exists now.

 

[SyCarl]

If they had been righteous souls in some place like Purgatory, they were dead and their fate already determined. What it probably means is that Jesus, through Moses, preached to the antediluvians who were effectively prisoners of their sin. Despite the preaching only eight were saved in the ark.

 

[Odell]

How is that believing in something unbiblical? I think that most Protestants would agree that this “prison” or “limbo of our fathers” existed at one point, even if they do not believe it exists now.

Is it biblical that this place no longer exist?

 

[bpbasilphx]

What it probably means is that Jesus, through Moses, preached to the antediluvians who were effectively prisoners of their sin.

Check your chronology. The Flood was in Genesis. Moses was in Exodus, about 1000 years later.

Try again.

 

[SyCarl]

What it probably means is that Jesus, through Moses, preached to the antediluvians who were effectively prisoners of their sin.

Check your chronology. The Flood was in Genesis. Moses was in Exodus, about 1000 years later.

Try again.

For some reason I said Moses instead of Noah.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison”. These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

This passage states there is a place other than Heaven and Hell.(Purgatory) If Protestants believe that this place no longer exists, then they believe something that is not biblical.

What you think? Is this a stumper?

I have a book written in 1884 by an Anglican titled- The Spirits in Prison and Other Studies on Life After Death. It is nearly 400 pages defending the doctrine of Purgatory and includes the pre-figures in the Old Testament , New Testament passages and Eschatology of the Early Church and Fathers.

 

[dacoobob]

The verse indicates that some after-death-destination other than heaven or hell exists or has existed. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s purgatory. Catholics also believe in Sheol/limbo-of-the-Fathers/Abraham’s bosom, right?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

The verse indicates that some after-death-destination other than heaven or hell exists or has existed. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s purgatory. Catholics also believe in Sheol/limbo-of-the-Fathers/Abraham’s bosom, right?

Sorry dacoobob, you’re really S-T-R-E-T-C-H-I-N-G it here!

Quit believing what non Catholics (who either proselytized you or encouraged you in this line of thinking) have to say about WHAT Catholics believe in:

try the Catechism.

It’s in black and white. And it doesn’t hem and haw like a fundamentalist justifying Sola Scriptura.

Robert

 

[RevDrNorth]

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison”. These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

This passage states there is a place other than Heaven and Hell.(Purgatory) If Protestants believe that this place no longer exists, then they believe something that is not biblical.

What you think? Is this a stumper?

It is an interesting passage. I believe in the Communion of Saints and accept praying for those that have passed from this life. This has been an ancient practice of the church and it certainly relates to the fact that we believe that those people we had a relationship here with continue on and that relationship is not ended. I hope that as in the Book of Revelation those Saints are offering prayers for me as well.

 

[dacoobob]

Sorry dacoobob, you’re really S-T-R-E-T-C-H-I-N-G it here!

Quit believing what non Catholics (who either proselytized you or encouraged you in this line of thinking) have to say about WHAT Catholics believe in:

try the Catechism.

It’s in black and white. And it doesn’t hem and haw like a fundamentalist justifying Sola Scriptura.

Robert

Whoa now, no need to jump down my throat. Here’s the relevant section from the CCC:

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.(479) Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: (480) “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.”(481) Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.(482)

As you can see, the Catechism doesn’t equate the “prison” of 1 Peter with Purgatory. Sorry.

 

[Odell]

Whoa now, no need to jump down my throat. Here’s the relevant section from the CCC:
As you can see, the Catechism doesn’t equate the “prison” of 1 Peter with Purgatory. Sorry.

Maybe not but the bible does say that there is a place other than heaven and hell and the bible does not say anywere that I know of that this place no longer exist.

thats the problem I was raising

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The verse indicates that some after-death-destination other than heaven or hell exists or has existed. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s purgatory. Catholics also believe in Sheol/limbo-of-the-Fathers/Abraham’s bosom, right?

It’s called Purgatory today in Catholic theology. Sheol/limbo-of-the-Fathers/Abraham’s bosom, is what the place was called where those of the old covenant who died justified in God’s grace waited for Christ to open the gates of Heaven at His Ascension. The difference is that those destined for Heaven and already perfected can now go directly there, in the Old Covenant, Heaven wasn’t open to anyone.

 

[Odell]

I recon no protestant can logically disprove purgatory from this passage:shrug:

 

[Mannyfit75]

I recon no protestant can logically disprove purgatory from this passage:shrug:

They can’t. Protestantism itself is a product of man’s sinfulness.

 

[Shiann]

Is it biblical that this place no longer exist?

Yes Christ, upon preaching to those in Limbus Patrum and releasing them to their eteral reward, it is no longer needed.

Limbus Patrum (Limbo of the Fathers) is NOT Purgatory.

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory.

newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

 

[Odell]

Yes Christ, upon preaching to those in Limbus Patrum and releasing them to their eteral reward, it is no longer needed.

Limbus Patrum (Limbo of the Fathers) is NOT Purgatory.

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory.

newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

could this place have been transformed into purgatory? Just a thought

But th emain point is that there is no scriptural verse that proves this place no longer exist (that I know of) Catholics of course dont have to have a verse that specifically says so but protestants do

and I can, from scripture prove there is another place other than heaven and hell. Can they from scripture prove there isnt?

 

[jmcrae]

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison”. These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

This passage states there is a place other than Heaven and Hell.(Purgatory) If Protestants believe that this place no longer exists, then they believe something that is not biblical.

What you think? Is this a stumper?

Uh - they’d be right, if so. The Limbo of the Fathers no longer exists; it was abolished at the moment of Christ’s Resurrection, when His human nature blew the locks off of the gates of Heaven with a mighty Covenant-splitting roar.

 

[jmcrae]

could this place have been transformed into purgatory? Just a thought.

Purgatory came into existence at the same moment that it became possible for human beings to go to Heaven. I suppose it’s possible that Purgatory occupies the same space/time that the Limbo of the Fathers did, but I don’t think it’s necessary that it does.

 

[Odell]

Purgatory came into existence at the same moment that it became possible for human beings to go to Heaven. I suppose it’s possible that Purgatory occupies the same space/time that the Limbo of the Fathers did, but I don’t think it’s necessary that it does.

Thanks

Is there anyway I can articulate this argument alittle better? or should I just concetrate on other passages?