Protestant Pickle

[CentralFLJames]

I wouldn’t call it a stumper. I don’t think this passage is conclusive proof of Purgatory, but it does at least illustrate that Purgatory is a possibility.

It is not clear that this place mentioned in this passage is Purgatory (certainly not clear enough to convince a non-Catholic). However, this passage does show that there can be a place in the afterlife other than heaven or hell.

This verse probably won’t be enough to change someone’s mind instantaneously. But, it may at least plant a seed that the teachings of the Church are not opposed to the Bible, even if they are not explicitly stated in the Bible.

For that matter Joe there is almost nothing in scripture that can be taken as conclusive proof of anything. God still insists on trust and faith.

This to me is why Catholic tradition and teaching as well as faith are important. From a holistic Catholic view of all of scripture taken with these other things everything just becomes profoundly “true and obvious”. We Catholics who have spent a lot of time studying scripture and reading the works, inspirations and even the private revelations of the Saints just know “by resonant feel” that its all absolute unassailable truth. So somehow “just know” personally with 100% certainty that Catholics are the only faith that “get it all” and “have it right”.

Everything Catholicism teaches is just a living and breathing truth that is consistent from Genesis forward to Revelation. There is so much profound scriptural prefiguring imagery all through scripture and tradition that one has no choice but to come to realize that all the teaching is true. Nothing can be in error and God has been working for thousands of years to prepare humanity for Christ.

I know personally without a doubt that purgatory is very real and that the vast majority of the souls that actually get to make it to heaven have to first go there for at least some time. I also know that its infinitely better to work hard now (by prayer and devotionals) to try to spend as little time as possible in purgatory or avoid it all together (very hard). Souls there are said to suffer the same intensity during purification as do those in hell. But the worst suffering is being seperated from God since these souls now know Him and can hear Him and pine to be with Him. But the suffering of separation is offset by the intensity of the joy of knowing they have certain salvation. This is why we must pray for these souls to be promoted since we can help them.

I think the key thing that Protestants need to intellectually grasp in order to accept Purgatory is that it must be seen as necessary to balance God’s perfect Justice with His Mercy. Purgatory is a profoundly merciful gift! Without it only a very few human souls could maintain themselves perfect enough to enter heaven at all . Without purgatory and no other options most souls would have to go to hell for being less than 100% pure.

True, sins can be forgiven by Christ but there are still consequences to sin that linger in the human soul require healing. God’s justice requires that we pay for the consequence of those forgiven sins. This can take a long time since our sins can effect many people - some may have even gone to hell because of our influence on them or harm to them (even though God forgave us)!

This is why heretics are in severe danger of being held accountable by God’s justice not only for their own error but for every sin of ever person who they turn away from God’s truth to deny them His redeeming grace. Anyone doubting this should read some of the revelations of the saints on hell to get a vision of what wrath God has for those that turn others away from His true teaching.

No one really thinks enough just how holy God is and how pure heaven is. A soul can not enter heaven even if it has even a trace of mental familiarity with sin. Sin is like an addiction. Even forgiven the memory of that sin wants to pull the soul back to it again (concupiscence). Nothing in heaven can know decay or corruption. In heaven thoughts, words, prayers, songs etc. become permanent and can actually manifest things or cause heavenly events. Purgatory burns away every shadow of memory or desire to sin.

James

 

[abcd]

I wouldn’t call it a stumper. I don’t think this passage is conclusive proof of Purgatory, but it does at least illustrate that Purgatory is a possibility.

It is not clear that this place mentioned in this passage is Purgatory (certainly not clear enough to convince a non-Catholic). However, this passage does show that there can be a place in the afterlife other than heaven or hell.

This verse probably won’t be enough to change someone’s mind instantaneously. But, it may at least plant a seed that the teachings of the Church are not opposed to the Bible, even if they are not explicitly stated in the Bible.

Catholics have so many ways of trying to get to heaven it is confusing. All my personal friends that are catholic have no assurance they will make it…sad

 

[jmcrae]

There is only one way and that is what Christ did when He shed His blood on the cross. All your suffering, good works, sacrements, purgatory, etc will not cleanse you. And even then you are only clean in the sight of God because of Jesus. Christ righteousness in imputed to you and you are found innocent. Like an earthly judge and jury finds someone innocent even though they are guilty.

You are saying that God lies - to Himself?

I can’t think of any greater heresy than that - how can you think that God, who is Truth, could call evil “good,” or say “Innocent” to the guilty? No - this is unthinkable.

Rather, when we are washed clean by Christ’s blood (which comes to us through the Sacraments of the Church and through prayer), we actually become clean. And we must remain clean until we die.

Catholics do this by making use of the Sacraments that Jesus left for us to use - Baptism washes us clean of our sins and joins us into Christ’s death on the Cross. In Holy Communion, we receive Christ’s body and blood, soul and divinity into our bodies, and become more like Him. In Confession, we rid ourselves of our more recent sins and renew our Baptism. And so on.

Do not believe even for one second that God will lie to Himself about you - this is a perfectly disastrous way of thinking.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James,

Sanctification is an ongoing thing all our lives. Why do you imply above that I do not believe this. Imputation does not take away the fact that you need not or don’t want to live a pleasing life to the Lord or bear fruit? Why make assumtions like these because they are not true.

Infusion is not scriptual as you state. I gave the scriptures concerning imputation.

abcd - don’t you think you are being conspiciously pretentious, sanctimonious, disingenuous, and “proselytiziticly” opportunistic here to feign I was talking to you? Note that I quoted Eric - not you. I was agreeing with him and elaborating. So please don’t try to use this as a cheap trick opportunity to stand on a soap box and preach to Catholics about things that we know are disordered.

I also take exception to you making a deliberate misrepresentation of my position. I never said infusion was not scriptural. That is 100% opposite to what I said. This is a very sophomoric and un-Christian game to play here. Nor did you give scriptural evidence of imputed grace at all nor make any case for it; you just falsely claimed you did.

Now let me ask you why do you come to a Catholic site and think to teach and preach to us things that we already know are not true? If Catholics want to learn your faith the will go to a Protestant websites and ask them questions. We Catholics are here to explain our faith, answer questions and teach others ours. Our true faith is not open to debate or compromise but we are happy to explain it to you.

Also please know that in your own forums before you can convert anyone to your way of thinking and break them away from their beliefs you will first have to convince them that what you say is true. But its ineffective for anyone to come here on this Catholic oriented site and preach a foreign doctrine that every Catholic here already knows is in error. Luther and so many others of the Protestant rebellion tried - but failed. Do you have something new to add to the rebellion that has not already been said?

For the record, I don’t think anything I said here arises from a general misunderstanding of Protestantism. Correct me if I am wrong but Protestants basically believe that if one believes in Jesus they are saved - period. This stems from the error of belief (imputed grace) in an how grace is conveyed. This is a heretical belief to us Catholics since that takes away all individual responsibility to cooperate with God’s grace. This kind of parochial belief not only flies in the face of modern day reason and intellect but it also says to God “you can’t send me to hell since I believed in Jesus!” God is likely to answer back something like ‘Then why did you not obey my Son and not get forgiven of your sins through His Church and why did you try to lead others astray from the Church teaching?’

But if you are signaling you really do not believe this concept of imputed grace as do most other Protestants - then you really should convert to Catholicism since you are out of camp with your brothers over on the other side of the isle and divide; not to mention out of camp with scriptural reality and truth and your salvation.

James

 

[abcd]

You are saying that God lies - to Himself?

I can’t think of any greater heresy than that - how can you think that God, who is Truth, could call evil “good,” or say “Innocent” to the guilty? No - this is unthinkable.

Rather, when we are washed clean by Christ’s blood (which comes to us through the Sacraments of the Church and through prayer), we actually become clean. And we must remain clean until we die.

Catholics do this by making use of the Sacraments that Jesus left for us to use - Baptism washes us clean of our sins and joins us into Christ’s death on the Cross. In Holy Communion, we receive Christ’s body and blood, soul and divinity into our bodies, and become more like Him. In Confession, we rid ourselves of our more recent sins and renew our Baptism. And so on.

Do not believe even for one second that God will lie to Himself about you - this is a perfectly disastrous way of thinking.

**To equate the righteousness of Christ’s imputation **with telling a lie is showing you have no understanding of the consequence of infusion and impartation.

Yours is a ridiculous statement not really worthy of an answer.

 

[abcd]

abcd - don’t you think you are being conspiciously pretentious, sanctimonious, disingenuous, and “proselytiziticly” opportunistic here to feign I was talking to you? Note that I quoted Eric - not you. I was agreeing with him and elaborating. So please don’t try to use this as a cheap trick opportunity to stand on a soap box and preach to Catholics about things that we know are disordered.

I also take exception to you making a deliberate misrepresentation of my position. I never said infusion was not scriptural. That is 100% opposite to what I said. This is a very sophomoric and un-Christian game to play here. Nor did you give scriptural evidence of imputed grace at all nor make any case for it; you just falsely claimed you did.

Now let me ask you why do you come to a Catholic site and think to teach and preach to us things that we already know are not true? If Catholics want to learn your faith the will go to a Protestant websites and ask them questions. We Catholics are here to explain our faith, answer questions and teach others ours. Our true faith is not open to debate or compromise but we are happy to explain it to you.

Also please know that in your own forums before you can convert anyone to your way of thinking and break them away from their beliefs you will first have to convince them that what you say is true. But its ineffective for anyone to come here on this Catholic oriented site and preach a foreign doctrine that every Catholic here already knows is in error. Luther and so many others of the Protestant rebellion tried - but failed. Do you have something new to add to the rebellion that has not already been said?

For the record, I don’t think anything I said here arises from a general misunderstanding of Protestantism. Correct me if I am wrong but Protestants basically believe that if one believes in Jesus they are saved - period. This stems from the error of belief (imputed grace) in an how grace is conveyed. This is a heretical belief to us Catholics since that takes away all individual responsibility to cooperate with God’s grace. This kind of parochial belief not only flies in the face of modern day reason and intellect but it also says to God “you can’t send me to hell since I believed in Jesus!” God is likely to answer back something like ‘Then why did you not obey my Son and not get forgiven of your sins through His Church and why did you try to lead others astray from the Church teaching?’

But if you are signaling you really do not believe this concept of imputed grace as do most other Protestants - then you really should convert to Catholicism since you are out of camp with your brothers over on the other side of the isle and divide; not to mention out of camp with scriptural reality and truth and your salvation.

James

Wow james, why the fire? I thought you were talking to me. And I did give several scriptures proving imputation. I guess you over looked them. Don’t judge my motives.

You know what. I think I like the died in the wool pre-vatican II catholics better because they tell it like the RC religion was before pre-vatican II council. That we Prots are going to hell period. Mel Gibson who is one even said that to a New Yorker reporter. Things were better then, they were black and white.

Since you think im trying to convert Catholics,(which im not) what do you think abou your EWTN network with the show “coming Home” where they are trying to convert Prots to the RCC?

 

[jmcrae]

**To equate the righteousness of Christ’s imputation **with telling a lie is showing you have no understanding of the consequence of infusion and impartation.

Yours is a ridiculous statement not really worthy of an answer.

Then why answer it?

God is Truth itself. He will not lie to Himself or to anyone else about the state of your soul when you arrive at the Judgment Day. Either you will be really and truly washed clean of your sins, and perfect through and through, in which case you will go to Heaven, or else you will still be in your sins, and you will go to Hell.

 

[erbo]

abcd-

First of all, the host of “The Journey Home” doesn’t try to convince people to convert, they bring guests on the show that are already Catholic, but have a testimony on how they arrived at the Catholic Church. It is about their journey home.

Now, back to the concept of infusion versus imputation. It is news to me that imputation is used in the Bible. I believe you, but perhaps you can cite a few verses so we can all read them in context.

If we are infused, then how can God be all-just? I understand that if a believer has a true “change of heart”, he will want to please God. But what if he has a habit of sin? Got can “impute” righteousness onto him, through His Grace, but where does the justice fit in?

Even if you don’t agree with the concept of infused righteousness, hopefully you can at least see and understand how Purgatory is necessary when you have an “infused” model of Grace.

-eric

 

[Odell]

You ask: “How do we become unclean”?

There is only one way and that is what Christ did when He shed His blood on the cross. All your suffering, good works, sacrements, purgatory, etc will not cleanse you. And even then you are only clean in the sight of God because of Jesus. Christ righteousness in imputed to you and you are found innocent. Like an earthly judge and jury finds someone innocent even though they are guilty.

ahh but it is Christ who cleanses us threw our suffering sacrements, purgatory.

tell what is the meaning of suffering from a protestant point of view?

maybe this will help me understand your point. Because Catholics value suffering

by the way we know it is only because of Jesus dont believe me just ask

oh and one more thing

God disciplines us even though he has washed us from our sins. Once a person becomes a Christian does not mean that there are no further punishments for sins. “Because Jesus blood is good enough for you.” (Heb 12:5-11) verse 6 “for whom the Lord loves he disciplines.” Do you not think that we will be disciplined for unrepentant sins after we die? 1 Cor 3:11-15 seems to suggest that we do.

again you dont value suffering or dicipline have you ever herd of this verse?

To deny the blood of Christ is sufficient to save to the uttermost is to deny christ.

tell me how are we denying his blood? When it is only because of his blood. Im confused

Works will be burned up because works do not save but this has nothing to do with purgatory.

Bill

tell me then how is it that one suffers loss in this state? We dont suffer loss in heaven do we? We dont suffer loss in hell then get out do we?

And the stumper

If suffering has no meaning than how is it we will suffer loss and then be saved by the fire that we are suffeirng from?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
“For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it.(this is when we die). It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. ** But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will SUFFER loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire**. “

Catholics have so many ways of trying to get to heaven it is confusing. All my personal friends that are catholic have no assurance they will make it…sad

Purgatory isnt us trying to get to heaven. It is God purifing us get it right

Phil 3:10-13 says “To know him and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death. If, somehow I may attain the resurrection of the dead it is not as if I’ve already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of it by Christ. Brothers and sisters, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing is forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead.”

(1Cor 9: 26-27) I train my body for fear that after preaching to others I myself should not be disqualified.

Further on in Chapter 10 verse 12 Paul teaches that we should not have absolute assurance either. “Therefore whoever thinks he is standing firm should take care not to fall.”

Sounds like your friends know how Paul was feeling

start another thred if you want to discuss it

Mike,

Looks like you agree with me on this one:thumbsup:

actually he dosnt we believe God makes us clean YOU belive he just covers your dungy self.

 

[abcd]

ahh but it is Christ who cleanses us threw our suffering sacrements, purgatory.

tell what is the meaning of suffering from a protestant point of view?

maybe this will help me understand your point. Because Catholics value suffering

by the way we know it is only because of Jesus dont believe me just ask

oh and one more thing

God disciplines us even though he has washed us from our sins. Once a person becomes a Christian does not mean that there are no further punishments for sins. “Because Jesus blood is good enough for you.” (Heb 12:5-11) verse 6 “for whom the Lord loves he disciplines.” Do you not think that we will be disciplined for unrepentant sins after we die? 1 Cor 3:11-15 seems to suggest that we do.

again you dont value suffering or dicipline have you ever herd of this verse?

tell me how are we denying his blood? When it is only because of his blood. Im confused

tell me then how is it that one suffers loss in this state? We dont suffer loss in heaven do we? We dont suffer loss in hell then get out do we?

And the stumper

If suffering has no meaning than how is it we will suffer loss and then be saved by the fire that we are suffeirng from?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
“For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it.(this is when we die). It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. ** But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will SUFFER loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire**. “

Purgatory isnt us trying to get to heaven. It is God purifing us get it right

Phil 3:10-13 says “To know him and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death. If, somehow I may attain the resurrection of the dead it is not as if I’ve already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of it by Christ. Brothers and sisters, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing is forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead.”

(1Cor 9: 26-27) I train my body for fear that after preaching to others I myself should not be disqualified.

Further on in Chapter 10 verse 12 Paul teaches that we should not have absolute assurance either. “Therefore whoever thinks he is standing firm should take care not to fall.”

Sounds like your friends know how Paul was feeling

start another thred if you want to discuss it

actually he dosnt we believe God makes us clean YOU belive he just covers your dungy self.

Mike,

By that last statement you show you just don’t get it.

 

[Sabda]

You ask: “How do we become unclean”?

There is only one way and that is what Christ did when He shed His blood on the cross. All your suffering, good works, sacrements, purgatory, etc will not cleanse you. And even then you are only clean in the sight of God because of Jesus. Christ righteousness in imputed to you and you are found innocent. Like an earthly judge and jury finds someone innocent even though they are guilty.

To deny the blood of Christ is sufficient to save to the uttermost is to deny christ.

Works will be burned up because works do not save but this has nothing to do with purgatory.

Bill

Interestingly enough I don’t see anything in my post that talked about denying the sufficiency of Christ’s blood and or about being saved by our works alone.

I DO seem to recall my post talked about how very merciful God is.

 

[rtconstant]

Mike,

By that last statement you show you just don’t get it.

He was just making reference to Martin Luther’s analogy that Christians are “snow covered dung hills”. In other words all believers have an equal amount of grace because we’re all sinners. Grace does not make a change to our nature but instead imputes upon us the substitutionary dignity of Christ.

So by all accounts it would seem that Mike actually does indeed “get it”. However, if you have a problem with the idea of “a snow covered dung hill”, and I don’t blame you if you do. You might want to take a closer look at the core doctrines that form the basis of Protestant theology.

The problem with imputed grace is that by default this means that obeying God’s Laws and Commandments are actions without any real merit. One cannot increase in grace through obedience to Our Lord since Grace (through which all virtue flows) is imputed (an objective, external, alien justification) upon the person as opposed to infused justification (to become part of) within the heart of the believer.

Also it would seem that one would have to wonder what it was that Jesus was trying to convey when He spoke of “being born again”? Regeneration makes no sense if no change is actually taking place. Protestants love to throw around how that infused grace implies that Christ’s work wasn’t sufficient. Yet it is the concept of imputed grace that declares that the work of Christ lacks the power to change people’s hearts and natures.

 

[abcd]

He was just making reference to Martin Luther’s analogy that Christians are “snow covered dung hills”. In other words all believers have an equal amount of grace because we’re all sinners. Grace does not make a change to our nature but instead imputes upon us the substitutionary dignity of Christ.

So by all accounts it would seem that Mike actually does indeed “get it”. However, if you have a problem with the idea of “a snow covered dung hill”, and I don’t blame you if you do. You might want to take a closer look at the core doctrines that form the basis of Protestant theology.

The problem with imputed grace is that by default this means that obeying God’s Laws and Commandments are actions without any real merit. One cannot increase in grace through obedience to Our Lord since Grace (through which all virtue flows) is imputed (an objective, external, alien justification) upon the person as opposed to infused justification (to become part of) within the heart of the believer.

Also it would seem that one would have to wonder what it was that Jesus was trying to convey when He spoke of “being born again”? Regeneration makes no sense if no change is actually taking place. Protestants love to throw around how that infused grace implies that Christ’s work wasn’t sufficient. Yet it is the concept of imputed grace that declares that the work of Christ lacks the power to change people’s hearts and natures.

HMM–Here we go again. You imply and say things that is not accurate. I and we do believe that Christ has the power to change our hearts and we become new creations. And obeying Gods laws do have merit but do not make us “more” saved then we already are. The Holy Spirit gives power to be a witness and helps us overcome temptation.

I don’t know where you got this MIS-information.
Bill

 

[Odell]

Mike,

By that last statement you show you just don’t get it.

You ment Odell

but how do you dissmiss all the scripture that I have given? You dont answer a single question.

are you that stumped

What do you figure a bible Christian cant answer bible questions:shrug:

 

[Sabda]

HMM–Here we go again. **You imply and say things that is not accurate.**I don’t know where you got this MIS-information.
Bill

Of course you do realize you have done the EXACT same thing.

 

[rtconstant]

HMM–Here we go again. You imply and say things that is not accurate. I and we do believe that Christ has the power to change our hearts and we become new creations. And obeying Gods laws do have merit but do not make us “more” saved then we already are. The Holy Spirit gives power to be a witness and helps us overcome temptation.

I don’t know where you got this MIS-information.
Bill

Ummm…

Martin Luther and John Calvin. You may have heard of them.

Now you apparently as an individual may believe that you are changed (infused) by Grace, and you would be right. However, imputed grace does not change your nature. That is the whole point of imputed grace. You have a new nature that is added over top of your actual nature. This new nature is a perfect Christ nature and its merits and benefits are objective. So when you do something right it wasn’t you who did it but this new overlaying nature that did it. That is imputed grace.

Now I will agree that many Protestants do not individually believe in imputed Grace even though they pay it lip service. However, we’re speaking about foundational doctrines of the reformation. While you may not believe it your church’s original theology is based on these concepts.

It sounds like to me that you are using the terms you’ve been taught in church (imputed Grace) but in practice actually believe that you have an infused Grace. Because if you believe that you have had a change in the nature of your heart then you believe that Grace has infused you.

 

[SyCarl]

He was just making reference to Martin Luther’s analogy that Christians are “snow covered dung hills”. In other words all believers have an equal amount of grace because we’re all sinners. Grace does not make a change to our nature but instead imputes upon us the substitutionary dignity of Christ.

So by all accounts it would seem that Mike actually does indeed “get it”. However, if you have a problem with the idea of “a snow covered dung hill”, and I don’t blame you if you do. You might want to take a closer look at the core doctrines that form the basis of Protestant theology.

The problem with imputed grace is that by default this means that obeying God’s Laws and Commandments are actions without any real merit. One cannot increase in grace through obedience to Our Lord since Grace (through which all virtue flows) is imputed (an objective, external, alien justification) upon the person as opposed to infused justification (to become part of) within the heart of the believer.

Also it would seem that one would have to wonder what it was that Jesus was trying to convey when He spoke of “being born again”? Regeneration makes no sense if no change is actually taking place. Protestants love to throw around how that infused grace implies that Christ’s work wasn’t sufficient. Yet it is the concept of imputed grace that declares that the work of Christ lacks the power to change people’s hearts and natures.

It should be realized that most Protestants use terminology differently than Catholics. Catholics equate justification and salvation. To Protestants salvation has four parts, only one of which is justification. The four parts are regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification.

When we are regenerated we are indeed infused with grace. We are given a new nature that allows us to want to seek and please God. We are also able to do things that are pleasing to Him. We still have our old nature that struggles against our new one.

Justification is the forgiving of our sins and the declaration that we are righteous solely on the basis of Jesus sacrifice. We are not truly righteous because we still have a capacity to sin. Righteousness in the eyes of God is perfection and we are not that. If you do not view righteousness as the perfection that Jesus is, perhaps you could say that we actually righteous but that is regeneration and the capacity to strive to be righteous.

That striving to be righteous is sanctification as we work out our salvation. This is where we try to become more and more like Jesus. God gives us the grace to do this but it is never complete in this life.

Perfection comes at glorification after death.

So in a sense a Protestant can talk about righteousness being infused, at least the capacity to try to be righteous. But we do not believe that we are made righteous because we are not perfect. We may not have unforgiven sin at any particulair time but we are still not perfect since there is still a taint in us.

 

[rtconstant]

It should be realized that most Protestants use terminology differently than Catholics. Catholics equate justification and salvation. To Protestants salvation has four parts, only one of which is justification. The four parts are regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification.

When we are regenerated we are indeed infused with grace. We are given a new nature that allows us to want to seek and please God. We are also able to do things that are pleasing to Him. We still have our old nature that struggles against our new one.

Justification is the forgiving of our sins and the declaration that we are righteous solely on the basis of Jesus sacrifice. We are not truly righteous because we still have a capacity to sin. Righteousness in the eyes of God is perfection and we are not that. If you do not view righteousness as the perfection that Jesus is, perhaps you could say that we actually righteous but that is regeneration and the capacity to strive to be righteous.

That striving to be righteous is sanctification as we work out our salvation. This is where we try to become more and more like Jesus. God gives us the grace to do this but it is never complete in this life.

Perfection comes at glorification after death.

So in a sense a Protestant can talk about righteousness being infused, at least the capacity to try to be righteous. But we do not believe that we are made righteous because we are not perfect. We may not have unforgiven sin at any particulair time but we are still not perfect since there is still a taint in us.

You are correct that probably most Protestants today. Look at it as you described. However, much of that was later development. New denominations like many of the modern Baptist churches mixed together reformation theology from multiple sources. This is how that a Southern Baptist can believe that Grace is open to all and yet eternally secure (a concept alien to mainline reformation theology).

However, imputation taken on its own merits does not allow for the changing of one’s personal nature. Modern Protestant theology would have got many people burned at the stake or excommunicated in reformation era Geneva.

 

[Uncle_Norbert]

All my personal friends that are catholic have no assurance they will make it…sad

That shows humility and hope, something that the Protestants seem to completely lack, with their arrogant “I’m Saved” philosophy. As if it is a one-time event.

Salvation isn’t an event, it’s a journey. Scripture is teeming with reference to the difficult journey to reach eternal salvation. Salvation isn’t something you can swing by and pick up at Wal-Mart, contrary to what so many of our “seperated brothers” want you to believe.

 

[CentralFLJames]

HMM–Here we go again. You imply and say things that is not accurate. I and we do believe that Christ has the power to change our hearts and we become new creations. And obeying Gods laws do have merit but do not make us “more” saved then we already are. The Holy Spirit gives power to be a witness and helps us overcome temptation.

I don’t know where you got this MIS-information.
Bill

Sorry abcs - but what you are saying here is theological and scripturally disordered.

Someone might think they are “saved” as you call it by shouting “Hallelujah I believe in Jesus!” to the sound of wild clapping in a Protestant revival tent. But that does not make it so. Baptism is the first step to our salvation - but it is not the last step nor does it guarantee salvation.

If somone goes out and murders somone after declaring themselves “saved” they are definitely not saved since they seperated themselves from God’s grace by disobeying God in a grave way. But if that same person honestly confesses that sin to an authority of the Church (Catholic Priest) who has the power to forgive sins and also prays sincerely and devotedly to God with a sincere heart asking for help and completely repents from that grave sin AND remains free of further sin before they die will see eternal life. But that same person will probably first have to spend a long time in purgatory unless the Church prays for him earnestly after he dies.

In summary:

Obeying God’s laws are of the highest importance because He calls us to Love Him and our neighbor. Loving God means being obedient to Jesus teaching. That means also submitting to the authority of the Catholic Church in receiving the sacraments (Eucharist and reconciliation in particular).

Self declaring oneself “saved” is a delusional and in and of itself affords absolutely no merit to furthering one’s eternal salvation. One must do more than say “I believe” - one must act out their lives in a way that proves that they really believe.

James