Protestant relatives received communion at Mass (they know they shouldnt), should I have said something to them before or after Mass ?

[FrDavid96]

I’m not sure about this particular report on Pope Francis, but there are circumstances under which a Protestant can request Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, as explained in DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM…

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_25031993_principles-and-norms-on-ecumenism_en.html

This is from the text that you quoted:
131. The conditions under which a Catholic minister may administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, of penance and of the anointing of the sick to a baptized person who may be found in the circumstances given above (n. 130) are that the person be unable to have recourse for the sacrament desired to a minister of his or her own Church or ecclesial Community, ask for the sacrament of his or her own initiative, manifest Catholic faith in this sacrament and be properly disposed.

It’s not enough just to read the part that it’s possible under certain conditions for non-Catholics to receive Holy Communion. We have to understand what are those conditions.

1. Unable to approach a minister of ones own church or community
2. Ask on ones own initiative
3. manifest Catholic faith in the Sacrament
4. Properly disposed.

No dispensation from these conditions is possible. That means that not even the bishop can give permission if even one of these conditions is lacking.

One of the necessary conditions for #3 is belief in the necessity of the ordained priesthood.

1. In my Encyclical Ut Unum Sint I expressed my own appreciation of these norms, which make it possible to provide for the salvation of souls with proper discernment: “It is a source of joy to note that Catholic ministers are able, in certain particular cases, to administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church but who greatly desire to receive these sacraments, freely request them and manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these sacraments. Conversely, in specific cases and in particular circumstances, Catholics too can request these same sacraments from ministers of Churches in which these sacraments are valid”.97

These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them. And the opposite is also true: Catholics may not receive communion in those communities which lack a valid sacrament of Orders
vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html

 

[LongingSoul]

This is from the text that you quoted:
131. The conditions under which a Catholic minister may administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, of penance and of the anointing of the sick to a baptized person who may be found in the circumstances given above (n. 130) are that the person be unable to have recourse for the sacrament desired to a minister of his or her own Church or ecclesial Community, ask for the sacrament of his or her own initiative, manifest Catholic faith in this sacrament and be properly disposed.

It’s not enough just to read the part that it’s possible under certain conditions for non-Catholics to receive Holy Communion. We have to understand what are those conditions.

1. Unable to approach a minister of ones own church or community
2. Ask on ones own initiative
3. manifest Catholic faith in the Sacrament
4. Properly disposed.

No dispensation from these conditions is possible. That means that not even the bishop can give permission if even one of these conditions is lacking.

One of the necessary conditions for #3 is belief in the necessity of the ordained priesthood.

1. In my Encyclical Ut Unum Sint I expressed my own appreciation of these norms, which make it possible to provide for the salvation of souls with proper discernment: “It is a source of joy to note that Catholic ministers are able, in certain particular cases, to administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church but who greatly desire to receive these sacraments, freely request them and manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these sacraments. Conversely, in specific cases and in particular circumstances, Catholics too can request these same sacraments from ministers of Churches in which these sacraments are valid”.97

These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them. And the opposite is also true: Catholics may not receive communion in those communities which lack a valid sacrament of Orders
vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html

I should have stressed I was not responding to the OP regarding her family but was replying to poster who said it was reported that Pope Francis had given Communion to a Protestant. I’m one of the crew on CAF that have faith in Pope Francis’ orthodoxy, so suggested that there could be a legitimate reason for him giving that Communion if the report were in fact true.

The OPs in laws don’t seem to qualify on the surface of course.

 

[jmcrae]

Are you sure that they’re out of communion? Several Anglican parishes ( I do believe) have in the last few years come home.

They would know who they are - they are no longer considered Anglican, by the Anglican Church, and their priests are Catholics in good standing with the Church.

 

[Tomdstone]

I should have stressed I was not responding to the OP regarding her family but was replying to poster who said it was reported that Pope Francis had given Communion to a Protestant.

I think it was Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II.

A poster said that “he read somewhere” that the Pope gave Holy Communion to a person the Pope knew to be a non-Catholic. I do not believe this is a true or factual statement - possibly a mis-reading of some article.
I think more information is needed before such a blatant statement is made - too many people might believe it to be true. Where did you read this article - and who was the author of the article?

I find it hard to believe that the Pope would give Holy Communion to a person he knows to be non-Catholic.

A quick google search by me found no reliable news source confirming this events.

Prime Minister Blair receives communion from Pope John Paul II at the Vatican:
library.episcopalchurch.org/article/prime-minister-blair-receives-communion-pope-john-paul-ii-vatican
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3746398.stm
“When Fr Roger Schutz, founder of the ecumenical monastic community at Taizé, in south-east France, attended the April 2005 funeral of Pope John Paul II, he received Communion from Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. This raised a few eyebrows at the time – Shutz was a Protestant pastor …[Cardinal] Kasper denies that Fr. Schutz “formally” adhered to the Catholic Church. He never left the Protestantism into which he was born…Here, therefore, is a Protestant being admitted to the Catholic eucharistic table (one presided by popes, no less) without actually being admitted into full Communion. The Protestant in question was clearly quite exceptional. But the case is surely significant for others. Anglo-Catholics in the Church of England, …”
americamagazine.org/content/all-things/brother-roger-taize-catholic-protestant-what

 

[manualman]

I thought I read somewhere that a recent Pope gave Holy Communion to a man he knew was a Protestant? If the Pope does so, what then would this example imply to an Anglo-Catholic Protestant?

Whether this is true or not is irrelevant because it doesn’t demonstrate anything. Certain bad popes of history had mistresses, but I assure you this doesn’t establish the morality of having a mistress. Popes are infallible in what they explicitly and authoritatively teach from the chair. individual actions in their lives, even in performance of the office, do not reach that standard.

Anglicans and other protestants who choose to take communion in a catholic church by their own reasoning are extremely rude. Yes, I understand they are acting on their convictions. So are the topless Femen activists who disrupt mass and scream obscenities at the priest. They think they are bravely standing up to the evil patriarchy. Civility demands rather more than merely living by our own rules.

 

[Tomdstone]

Anglicans and other protestants who choose to take communion in a catholic church by their own reasoning are extremely rude.

What if they get permission from the Catholic priest to do so? As you can see, this has occurred.

 

[FrDavid96]

What if they get permission from the Catholic priest to do so? As you can see, this has occurred.

46…
These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them. And the opposite is also true: Catholics may not receive communion in those communities which lack a valid sacrament of Orders.

vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html

 

[manualman]

What if they get permission from the Catholic priest to do so? As you can see, this has occurred.

If they do so out of genuine ignorance and/or being misinformed, they are not culpable for their rudeness!

 

[GaudentAngeli]

My conscience was still bothering me so I just went to speak to one of the priests at my parish about it. He told me that Anglicans are in fact allowed to receive communion at Catholic parishes. I, as a Catholic, am not allowed to go there to receive communion but because Anglicans are properly baptized and are so close to catholicism they can receive ours. I emphatically disagreed with him, but he just smiled at me and gently stood his ground. So…uummm…that was an odd experience.

 

[Tomdstone]

My conscience was still bothering me so I just went to speak to one of the priests at my parish about it. He told me that Anglicans are in fact allowed to receive communion at Catholic parishes.

Yes. This is what I have heard also. What does it say when a Pope gives communion to an Anglican and the local Catholic priest says that they are allowed to receive communion?

 

[LongingSoul]

Yes. This is what I have heard also. What does it say when a Pope gives communion to an Anglican and the local Catholic priest says that they are allowed to receive communion?

Our understanding of the gift Jesus gave us by the Eucharist is an ever deepening process in the Church’s journey. It can be ironic that certain specific exceptions to a general rule can in fact throw a brighter light on the necessity of the general rule.

This is not a huge issue outside the States as far as the Anglicans and our relationship to them.

This document jointly created by the Church in England, Ireland and Scotland should help you understand where the issue stems from and why the exception, while never becoming a general rule, may be edifying for us.

catholic-ew.org.uk/Catholic-News-Media-Library/Archive-Media-Assets/Files/CBCEW-Publications/One-Bread-One-Body

 

[GaudentAngeli]

I am beyond confused.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

My conscience was still bothering me so I just went to speak to one of the priests at my parish about it. He told me that Anglicans are in fact allowed to receive communion at Catholic parishes. I, as a Catholic, am not allowed to go there to receive communion but because Anglicans are properly baptized and are so close to catholicism they can receive ours. I emphatically disagreed with him, but he just smiled at me and gently stood his ground. So…uummm…that was an odd experience.

Boy, that is news to me! Not that I have the end word on such things, but my impression is that this is not true. I hate to criticize priests, but it certainly isn’t out of the realm of possibility that a priest is wrong on a matter like this (either because he is simply mistaken, or because he disagrees with the rules). Perhaps for clarity, you could ask the apologists here - I would trust their answer.

That said, it is very disrespectful for someone to go into a church of another faith than their own and deliberately act in a way that they know is against the rules of that church. Furthermore, to go with you, and to flaunt your disrespect in front of you was highly disrespectful to you personally. It is one thing to not care what an institution thinks, and it’s one thing to not care if you are being disrespectful to the faith of the people in the pews around you. But you would think that they would at least have enough respect for you to hold back for your sake. If it were me, the fact that they didn’t would offend me big time. Depending on how close I was to this family member, I might call them out on their behavior. I might try to explain the reasoning about the rule, but more than that I’d make the case that a good person respects the rules of the house when they are in someone else’s house.

If the issue comes up in the future (ie-if I have an opportunity to go to Mass with them again), I would probably explain that I can’t go to Mass with them because their behavior was offensive to me personally, and their flaunting of their own disrespect for the rule of the church was also quite rude and disrespectful to me along with the rest of the church. Personally, I would try to avoid saying “I’m uncomfortable going in this situation” because it makes it sound like I am the one with the problem when in fact the problem is the rudeness of the family member. But I also understand that sometimes you just don’t have it in you to be that confrontational, and it might be the lesser of two evils to be self deprecating if that is what it takes to keep from going with them.

But now that there has been doubt cast on the rule itself, it would probably be helpful for you to clarify it with a source that you are sure is both obedient to the Church’s teaching, AND knowledgeable about it.

 

[LongingSoul]

I am beyond confused.

Perhaps you could actually show them the relevant Canons of the Church which deal with this issue as they may be assuming its alright since the Pope administered Communion to Tony Blair or some other example?

This explanation from an EWTN apologist might be helpful…

Under what conditions, therefore, may non-Catholics from the Reformation churches receive? Paragraph 4 addresses this matter and sets stricter conditions than for non-Catholics who belong to Churches which have a valid Eucharist, true Eucharistic faith and valid Penance. These conditions are:

a. danger of death, or, other grave necessity,
b. the norms of the diocesan bishop, or, the conference of bishops are
complied with
c. cannot approach a minister of his or her own community
d. asks on his or her own for it,
e. manifests Catholic faith in the sacraments
f. properly disposed.

These last two conditions are very important. When Catholics and Orthodox present themselves for Communion, either to their own minister or that of another Church with valid sacraments, Eucharistic faith and proper disposition is assumed, given the introduction to both Penance and the Eucharist at an early age in Churches which have a Catholic Eucharistic faith. However, when a non-Catholic presents himself the norms presume an investigation to determine the person’s faith, and to determine the necessary moral conditions for a proper reception of the Eucharist. That all these conditions are met, especially the last two, cannot be determined by a minister of Communion, ordinary or extraordinary, in the Communion line. This is why the USCCB guidelines, which are published in the back of every missalette, exclude weddings, funerals and other such occasions as appropriate for intercommunion. **The occasions would be individual, normally determined by a pastor after consultation with the bishop, or, in accordance with norms drawn up on the basis of this canon **(paragraph 5).

ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm

 

[GaudentAngeli]

Perhaps you could actually show them the relevant Canons of the Church which deal with this issue as they may be assuming its alright since the Pope administered Communion to Tony Blair or some other example?

This explanation from an EWTN apologist might be helpful…

ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm

He could never fulfill that list, seeing as he is himself an ordained minister just without a congregation. I could show him this list that you and others have posted in this thread but it wouldn’t do any good because they’re perfectly comfortable disregarding Church teachings that they don’t like.