Protestant? right

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shawn34_a said:
Isaia 22:22 The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; So he shall open, and no one shall shut; And he shall shut, and no one shall open.

Matthew 16:17Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth £will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Revelations 3:7 These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”

We have some issues here I suppose. Who then holds the key? The three references refer to the “key of David.” Each time it’s singular denoting one key. How’s that possible then in 95 to 96 ad. In the letter to the church of Philadelphia, John writes to inform them that Jesus holds the key of David.
. How do we reconcile?
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There is only one Key… It was an actual key that the Prime Minister (chief steward) actually carried on his shoulder for all to see, I believe it actually unlocked the main gate to the city or the mansion, or the kingdom.

It was given to the pm while the King was away.

Jesus the King is away… He does not take the Key with Him (and leave us orphans)

Instead he gives the power and authority ( the key - not a visible key in the NT) to Peter and on to Peter’s successors,
 
shawn34_a said:
If we continue to sin and don’t repent of our ways, Jesus said told us to get away for he never knew us. If we continue to sin, we were never saved from the start for we never accepted Christ.
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Are you sure your catholic?😛 😃
 
MrS said:
There is only one Key… It was an actual key that the Prime Minister (chief steward) actually carried on his shoulder for all to see, I believe it actually unlocked the main gate to the city or the mansion, or the kingdom.

It was given to the pm while the King was away.

Jesus the King is away… He does not take the Key with Him (and leave us orphans)

Instead he gives the power and authority ( the key - not a visible key in the NT) to Peter and on to Peter’s successors,
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I understand that it is not an actual key, but the key to heaven.

But in 95 to 96 ad in the book of Revelations 3:7, John is told to write to the angel of the Church of Philadelphia "These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens.” If Peter passed it onto his successor, that would mean in 95 ad, there had to be two keys, one with Jesus and another with Peter’s successor. Can’t happen for the key of David is always singular denoting one key. Apparently upon his Peter’s death, the key of David reverted back to Jesus between 65 and 95 ad so that Rev 3:7 and Matthew 16:18 (I believe) do not contradict. Rev 3:7 is not prophetic at that point for Rev 4 starts the prophetic portion.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Are you sure your catholic?😛 😃
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Why’s that? Sinning is contrary to God’s will of course. If one continues sinning in the same fashion then they’re not sorrowful and you never truly repented. To receive the Grace of God, you have to accept Christ, repent of your sins, and be baptized. If you fail to change your ways after baptism, you were never saved only washed. If you believe in Christ, you will live according to his will and perform his works.
 
shawn34_a said:
I understand that it is not an actual key, but the key to heaven.

But in 95 to 96 ad in the book of Revelations 3:7, John is told to write to the angel of the Church of Philadelphia "These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens.” If Peter passed it onto his successor, that would mean in 95 ad, there had to be two keys, one with Jesus and another with Peter’s successor. Can’t happen for the key of David is always singular denoting one key. Apparently upon his Peter’s death, the key of David reverted back to Jesus between 65 and 95 ad so that Rev 3:7 and Matthew 16:18 (I believe) do not contradict. Rev 3:7 is not prophetic at that point for Rev 4 starts the prophetic portion.
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In the OT, the Key also had a practical function… opening a gate.

In the NT, the Key is the sign of authority. Jesus does not need it, He is the Truth, and the Truth is in Heaven. The authority of the Vicar/PrimeMinister/ChiefSteward in the NT passes to the succeeding holder of that office… until the King returns. It is the office which must be filled… the office holds the key/authority.
 
shawn34_a said:
I understand that it is not an actual key, but the key to heaven.

But in 95 to 96 ad in the book of Revelations 3:7, John is told to write to the angel of the Church of Philadelphia "These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens.” If Peter passed it onto his successor, that would mean in 95 ad, there had to be two keys, one with Jesus and another with Peter’s successor. Can’t happen for the key of David is always singular denoting one key. Apparently upon his Peter’s death, the key of David reverted back to Jesus between 65 and 95 ad so that Rev 3:7 and Matthew 16:18 (I believe) do not contradict. Rev 3:7 is not prophetic at that point for Rev 4 starts the prophetic portion.
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assuming your dates are correct… don’t know… the key to the kingdom(of heaven=Truth) had already passed from Peter on to his successor.
 
shawn34_a said:
But in 95 to 96 ad in the book of Revelations 3:7, John is told to write to the angel of the Church of Philadelphia "These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens.”
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Even from the Catholic position, Christ would own the keys. He did not give the keys of Heaven for St. Peter to own, but rather for St. Peter to use (and so on for his successors). And the successors of St. Peter would still use these only under the direction of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

After all, the Pope would be an instrument for the teaching of Truth, not the object from which Truth originates.

A speculation from a non-Catholic as to the orthodox Catholic response.
 
noma said:
Even from the Catholic position, Christ would own the keys. He did not give the keys of Heaven for St. Peter to own, but rather for St. Peter to use (and so on for his successors). And the successors of St. Peter would still use these only under the direction of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

After all, the Pope would be an instrument for the teaching of Truth, not the object from which Truth originates.

A speculation from a non-Catholic as to the orthodox Catholic response.
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👍 👍 👍
 
shawn34_a said:
But if it were the real Body and Blood of Christ, Paul and the other apostles could not eat it for they were Jewish. Jesus spoke in Parables through out the NT for he knew that the true believers in him would understand. He even says it himself when asked why he speaks this way. In John 6, Jesus was trying to get the religious leaders to see beyond the physical aspects of His teaching to the real issue, that if you believe in him, you would have everlasting life. Because the did not believe, many of the disciples did not follow Jesus any longer. Many did not believe because it was not granted to them by the Father (Romans 11)
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I need a smiley that shows somebody with x’s for eyes, flat on the floor, gasping in disbelief! Shawn, my Beloved: how about picking up a couple of Scripture studies by Scott Hahn? Honest: it would be a great thing for you to see how a Bible-thumping Catholic approaches this stuff.

I mean this as no disparagement of your position, but honest, Shawn: the points you make could be answered in Catholic apologetics 101. And if you got through RCIA with no better appreciation of the breadth, depth, and height of Catholic teaching than you show here, then your pastor and RCIA director should be sued for malpractice!
 
MrS said:
assuming your dates are correct… don’t know… the key to the kingdom(of heaven=Truth) had already passed from Peter on to his successor.
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Yup. Peter died around 68 A.D. By 90 A.D., we were on number four, since the first three had already been martyred.
 
shawn34_a said:
But if it were the real Body and Blood of Christ, Paul and the other apostles could not eat it for they were Jewish. Jesus spoke in Parables through out the NT for he knew that the true believers in him would understand. He even says it himself when asked why he speaks this way. In John 6, Jesus was trying to get the religious leaders to see beyond the physical aspects of His teaching to the real issue, that if you believe in him, you would have everlasting life. Because the did not believe, many of the disciples did not follow Jesus any longer. Many did not believe because it was not granted to them by the Father (Romans 11)
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This is a very hard teaching. You should probably spend some time away from the forums mulling this over. Pray about it.

There are many good reasons to accept that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Our Lord.

This was hard for me to accept before I was Catholic. But now, even though I am no longer Catholic, I still believe this fully.
 
MrS said:
assuming your dates are correct… don’t know… the key to the kingdom(of heaven=Truth) had already passed from Peter on to his successor.
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The date of Peters death I found online on a Catholic website. The date of Revelations I have in my commentaries and varied online. The quote out of Isaiah 22:22, the Eliahim was the 40th person in the lineage of Christ starting with God. You can go to the Gospel of Luke for that one. But we can figure out closely King Davids life and Abrahams.

We have no proof that the key was ever passed onto Peter’s successor. It really doesn’t matter for this point. But it would have to have been returned to Jesus by 95 ad for Rev 3:7 to be true.
 
shawn34_a said:
The date of Peters death I found online on a Catholic website. The date of Revelations I have in my commentaries and varied online. The quote out of Isaiah 22:22, the Eliahim was the 40th person in the lineage of Christ starting with God. You can go to the Gospel of Luke for that one. But we can figure out closely King Davids life and Abrahams.

We have no proof that the key was ever passed onto Peter’s successor. It really doesn’t matter for this point. But it would have to have been returned to Jesus by 95 ad for Rev 3:7 to be true.
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You have an agonizingly literalilstic view of this. Do you think that Jesus actually handed a literal key to Peter – maybe on that morning when they were walking on the beach? Or would it have been at Pentecost? If you were to pin me down on the subject, I would say that Peter didn’t even know it had happened until he stood up on Pentecost, opened his mouth and delivered that magnificent address.

He probably heard himself speaking thought: Where is this coming from? – and then understood along with the other 10 that the Holy Spirit had delivered the key that the Boss had promised that afternoon at Cesarea Philippi . . . Frankly, you could probably make a pretty good case that he really didn’t want it.
 
shawn34_a said:
I understand that it is not an actual key, but the key to heaven.

But in 95 to 96 ad in the book of Revelations 3:7, John is told to write to the angel of the Church of Philadelphia "These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens.” If Peter passed it onto his successor, that would mean in 95 ad, there had to be two keys, one with Jesus and another with Peter’s successor. Can’t happen for the key of David is always singular denoting one key. Apparently upon his Peter’s death, the key of David reverted back to Jesus between 65 and 95 ad so that Rev 3:7 and Matthew 16:18 (I believe) do not contradict. Rev 3:7 is not prophetic at that point for Rev 4 starts the prophetic portion.
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I thought you were using the King James Bible? Because it translates the keys given to Peter as plural, not single:
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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Matthew 16:15-19 (KJV).

(The Douay-Rheims translation also has “keys,” plural).

And, in any event, we’re talking a symbolic set of keys here. It’s not like Peter was actually given a bunch of keys on a ring that would open a physical gate; it was the authority he was being given. Your argument makes it sound like Jesus got locked out of Heaven and had to ask Peter to let Him in. But Jesus needs no actual key (or keys) to get into Heaven; He wouldn’t have to get the keys back from Peter, because the whole passage is talking about Peter’s authority, not an actual set of keys.
 
lak611 said:
Were you Baptist before you converted?
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I was baptized into the Baptist church at 16 in 1988 (I think). But I never practiced any faith until I converted in 2001. However in bootcamp I went every Sunday. I had to get away from the DI’s anyway possible. But over the past year I’ve just been consumed by scripture whether reading the Bible, listening to the Bible on CD when driving, or litening to EWTN, Catholic channel, or Christian Talk.
 
Godfollower said:
Shawn, I hope that didn’t sound snide; I certainly didn’t mean it that way. If you were offended, I apologize.
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I hope my rollling heads weren’t offensive either. The image just hit my laugh switch: Jesus standing at the gate of heaven because he gave away the key and locked himself out. I was laughing at Godfollowers word-picture.
 
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