Protestant? right

[shawn34_a]

Let’s see… the Jews believe in the God of Abraham and are not saved. What about them? They profess the same god too. See how your reasoning makes absolutely no sense? The problem here is that you CANNOT get to God if you don’t believe in His son, Jesus. That’s Christianity 101.

No I don’t. Know you Bible. It was God’s purposeful plan to harden the hearts of the Jews until the fulfillment of the Gentiles (Christians) has taken place. This can be found in Romans 11. Then you find through the scriptures that the Messiah, second coming, will reveal himself to the Jews specifically. The will specifically ask how he received those wounds. His replie is that he received them in the house of his friends (paraphrased) Zach 12 (I believe). When he steps foot on the Mt of Olives and reveals himself, there will be great wheeping and morning like that has never been saw.

In short, God works on his own time table. The Jews have always been God’s chosen people. Once Christ died and was resurrected, those of us that were unclean (soon to be Christians) were made one with the Jews (Acts 10:25-28)

Perfect sense!

 

[Bishopite]

Let’s see… the Jews believe in the God of Abraham and are not saved. What about them? They profess the same god too. See how your reasoning makes absolutely no sense? The problem here is that you CANNOT get to God if you don’t believe in His son, Jesus. That’s Christianity 101.

Bad theology comes from bad philosophy and also that theology and philosophy go hand-in-hand. Paul even uses philsophical truth in 1 Cor 12-13 speaking on what is love and he reasoned with to those he witnessed. Paul brings together philosophy (like that of Socrates) and theology (like that of Jesus Christ).
I’m afraid you perhaps need to rethink both your theology and philosophy because even non-Christians who haven’t heard of Christ Jesus ever can still have the ability to be saved (even though if they are saved, it IS because of the merits of Christs work and through His church, the Catholic church). I certain parts of the world, i.e, North Korea, Iran, or some remote part of Africa, India or South America there are people who have never had an opportunity to reject Jesus Christ because He they have never been confronted with the idea of the saving grace of Jesus and you can’t reject that which you’ve never been told

It is apparent that you aren’t using proper logic here or…you are a strict five point Calivnist who believes God created and predestined humanity for either heaven or hell and they can’t do anything to change their predestined fate. Would a just God condemn the person who never knew of Jesus but lived a just life? It doesn’t logically follow that God would.

And then there are children who have never been evangelized, never had a chance to accept Jesus as their savior, would God send them to hell?

When you say the “Jews believe in the God of Abraham and they are not saved” well how do you know for sure?

Well then look at Luke 12:47-48—
“That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.”

Notice the servant who was “ignorant of his maters will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating” was only beaten “lightly”…suggesting that he wasn’t fully condemned to a “severe” beating as would be the one who knowingly acted against his master, therefore wasn’t culpable for that which he did not fully know.

If you are given much, much is required, if you are a Jew or Muslim who are both monotheists believe in the God of Abraham as they had been taught and were faithful to what they had been taught; never being confonted by the saving message of Jesus, isn’t it possible they could be saved if they didn’t reject that which they didn’t know?

And using your logic would the Jews have to know the Trinity to be saved?
No, they wouldn’t… read Hebrew 11 it’s a chapter on hagiography (praise of the Saints) speaking of their just behavior. Did all of them know the Trinity? No they were ALL faithful to what they knew.

 

[believers]

No I don’t. Know you Bible. It was God’s purposeful plan to harden the hearts of the Jews until the fulfillment of the Gentiles (Christians) has taken place. This can be found in Romans 11. Then you find through the scriptures that the Messiah, second coming, will reveal himself to the Jews specifically. The will specifically ask how he received those wounds. His replie is that he received them in the house of his friends (paraphrased) Zach 12 (I believe). When he steps foot on the Mt of Olives and reveals himself, there will be great wheeping and morning like that has never been saw.

In short, God works on his own time table. The Jews have always been God’s chosen people. Once Christ died and was resurrected, those of us that were unclean (soon to be Christians) were made one with the Jews (Acts 10:25-28)

Perfect sense!

Yes, the Jews are God’s chosen people. But, they are not exempt from believing in Jesus as the Son of God. Those who do not, which is the majority at this moment are not saved.

Just for clarification, are you saying that Jews are saved based on the fact that they are God’s chosen people?

 

[believers]

When you say the “Jews believe in the God of Abraham and they are not saved” well how do you know for sure?
.

Becuase they don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah. BUT, one day they will. UNTIL THEN, those who do not believe are not saved.

 

[MrS]

Becuase they don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah. BUT, one day they will. UNTIL THEN, those who do not believe are not saved.

I think you should take the good advice given in #211

 

[believers]

I think you should take the good advice given in #211

Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[lak611]

Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

He is not giving advice based on philosophy. His advice in post #211 comes straight from the Bible.

 

[believers]

He is not giving advice based on philosophy. His advice in post #211 comes straight from the Bible.

True or False? Catholics and Muslims share belief in the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

 

[believers]

I think you should take the good advice given in #211

True or False? Catholics and Muslims share belief in the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

 

[MrS]

True or False? Catholics and Muslims share belief in the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

Yep, it is either true of false,

Personally, I believe many Muslims are misinformed and seriously mislead. They believe in the God of Abraham,as they are taught to know Him. But they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ in their ignorance, and thus lose out big time on the fullness of the Faith.
Are they well meaning, Yes.
Are they correct, NO.

The same can be said of many non-Catholic christians. Do they beleive in the God of Abraham, yes… and the Triune existenced of God, yes. But they deny the very words of Christ that express His Real Presence in the Eucharist. Worse than walking away, they stay and deny, and lose out big time on the fullness of the Faith.
Are they well meaning, yes,
Are they correct, NO.

The same can be said of many Catholics, Do they profess belief in the Truine God, yes. Are they believers, no. The Scriptural concept of believe is to obey. Most choose to not obey. And thus they lose out on the Fullness of the Faith, and it is right in their very Church,
Are they well meaning, yes… but lazy or ignorant.
Are they correct… no

God, however, in His total love and mercy still wishes that All men will come to Him. But He is the Judge as to whether they have acted correctly on the knowledge they have.

Thank God that God is God

 

[shawn34_a]

Yes, the Jews are God’s chosen people. But, they are not exempt from believing in Jesus as the Son of God. Those who do not, which is the majority at this moment are not saved.

Just for clarification, are you saying that Jews are saved based on the fact that they are God’s chosen people?

What don’t you understand? They are currently exempt until the fulfillment of the Gentiles. Jesus then will avail himself to the Jews.

Romans 11:25-32
25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be £saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins. ”£28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Zechariah 13:6
6And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your £arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’

Zechariah 12:9-14
9It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of £Megiddo. 12And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

Zechariah 14:3-4
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

The blindness is clearly God’s will so that we (gentiles) may be saved. Romans 11:32 sums it up.

 

[Bishopite]

Becuase they don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah. BUT, one day they will. UNTIL THEN, those who do not believe are not saved.

How about the poor souls in the remote jungles of Africa or South America who have never heard of Jesus Christ nor ever in their lifetime had the opportunity to hear the gospel, when they die, are they going to hell?

You being Catholic aren’t following the Church’s teaching in regard to the “possiblity” of non-Catholicis and non-Christians to be saved. And you can’t say “for sure” that a person is in hell, that’s a presumption that you don’t know. People do go to hell, it’s just not now for us to know who they are, only God knows and certainly one day we will all know.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

 

[rciadan]

So, I suppose from the statement below, we can officially group the faith of Catholics and Muslims in the same category.

If so you suppose in error…

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Please explain to me where is the statement above you get the notion that the Church is teaching that the faith of Catholics and of Islam are the same. Nowhere in that paragraph is it said or even implied that “the Muslims will be saved” (the quote is your exact words).It merely states that Islam professes God the Father, period. It also states that gods plan of salvation includes Muslims, as it does pagans, Jews, Hindus, and every other religion. To be included in Gods plan does not equate to a guarantee of salvation for all of that faith, as you imply that the Catholic Church teaches in that paragraph.
Words mean things, and the lack of words mean things too. Words such as “the”, “will”, “same”, etc are nowhere in that statement.

Someone needs to tell the Vatican to believe John 14:6

*Someone *needs to listen to what the Vatican is really saying and teaching instead of being so focused on rebelling that they can’t hear properly!

 

[shawn34_a]

If so you suppose in error…

Please explain to me where is the statement above you get the notion that the Church is teaching that the faith of Catholics and of Islam are the same. Nowhere in that paragraph is it said or even implied that “the Muslims will be saved” (the quote is your exact words).It merely states that Islam professes God the Father, period. It also states that gods plan of salvation includes Muslims, as it does pagans, Jews, Hindus, and every other religion. To be included in Gods plan does not equate to a guarantee of salvation for all of that faith, as you imply that the Catholic Church teaches in that paragraph.
Words mean things, and the lack of words mean things too. Words such as “the”, “will”, “same”, etc are nowhere in that statement.

Someone needs to tell the Vatican to believe John 14:6

*Someone *needs to listen to what the Vatican is really saying and teaching instead of being so focused on rebelling that they can’t hear properly!

Exactly RCIAdan. God’s plan of salvation includes everyone. But the reality is not everyone will be saved or else there would be no need for hell.

 

[believers]

If so you suppose in error…

Please explain to me where is the statement above you get the notion that the Church is teaching that the faith of Catholics and of Islam are the same. Nowhere in that paragraph is it said or even implied that “the Muslims will be saved” (the quote is your exact words).It merely states that Islam professes God the Father, period. It also states that gods plan of salvation includes Muslims, as it does pagans, Jews, Hindus, and every other religion. To be included in Gods plan does not equate to a guarantee of salvation for all of that faith, as you imply that the Catholic Church teaches in that paragraph.
Words mean things, and the lack of words mean things too. Words such as “the”, “will”, “same”, etc are nowhere in that statement.

Someone needs to tell the Vatican to believe John 14:6

*Someone *needs to listen to what the Vatican is really saying and teaching instead of being so focused on rebelling that they can’t hear properly!

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

The Muslim God (Allah) and God the Father are not the same.
Muslims do not acknowledge the true Creator as that statement claims.
Muslims profess the faith of Muhammad… not Adam, not Abraham, not Moses, not David, and not Jesus
Muslims do not adore God.

Declaration of the Muslim faith, By reciting this, one enters Islamic faith

“I bear witness that there is no god, but God; I bear witness that Muhammad is the prophet of God.”

 

[believers]

What don’t you understand? They are currently exempt until the fulfillment of the Gentiles. Jesus then will avail himself to the Jews.

Romans 11:25-32
25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be £saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins. ”£28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Zechariah 13:6
6And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your £arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’

Zechariah 12:9-14
9It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of £Megiddo. 12And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

Zechariah 14:3-4
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

The blindness is clearly God’s will so that we (gentiles) may be saved. Romans 11:32 sums it up.

That’s a well put explanation but I’m sure you understand scripture cannot contradict. With that being said…

Romans 11:26 is addressing the salvation of ALL the Israel of God, AND Christians [Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise]

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Notice, it doesn’t say all the Jews will be saved, it says all Israel.

Rom 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Notice, it doesn’t say ALL of the children of Israel

Gal 3:29
And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Because we believe in Christ, we are now of Abraham’s seed…

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus NEITHER circumcision availeth any thing, NOR uncircumcision, but a new creature.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jhn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[shawn34_a]

That’s a well put explanation but I’m sure you understand scripture cannot contradict. With that being said…

Romans 11:26 is addressing the salvation of ALL the Israel of God, AND Christians [Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise]

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Notice, it doesn’t say all the Jews will be saved, it says all Israel.

Rom 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Notice, it doesn’t say ALL of the children of Israel

Gal 3:29
And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Because we believe in Christ, we are now of Abraham’s seed…

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus NEITHER circumcision availeth any thing, NOR uncircumcision, but a new creature.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jhn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 11:26 specifically calls out the Jews, not the Gentiles. So that arguement does not hold water. So that the fulfillment of the Gentiles can take place. The Jews are NOT the gentiles.

Rom 9:27 is the 144,000 (12000 from each tribe of Israel) as mentioned in Revelations for they did not defile themselves.

John 14:6 - Read the Zechariah passages that I included pertaining to the Jews. They make reference to them recognizing him as the Messiah and repenting. So that conforms to what I’m saying.

I’ll comment on the others later for I have to run. Learn to accept God’s word, not reject them. These are clear, not parables and metaphors.

 

[shawn34_a]

That’s a well put explanation but I’m sure you understand scripture cannot contradict. With that being said…

Romans 11:26 is addressing the salvation of ALL the Israel of God, AND Christians [Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise]

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Notice, it doesn’t say all the Jews will be saved, it says all Israel.

Rom 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Notice, it doesn’t say ALL of the children of Israel

Gal 3:29
And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Because we believe in Christ, we are now of Abraham’s seed…

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus NEITHER circumcision availeth any thing, NOR uncircumcision, but a new creature.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jhn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me.

With the Rom 9:27 passage, back up to Rom 9:22 on and put it in proper context and you’ll understand. We are being told to be prepared for both doom and mercy. God is calling both Jews and Gentiles.

Gal 3:29 refers to Jesus redeeming all that believe in him, whether Jew or Gentiles. Some Jews recognized Christ as the Savior, for there are Christian Jews out there.

Gal 6:15 The reference to circumcision is better explained in Romans 3. In essence, who is more righteous, those circumsised of the flesh and lack faith and don’t follow the law, or those uncircumsised and do. Rhetorical question. But what you find is that those who do believe should still be circumcised according to the law. It only starts a new law for that person.

2 Cor 5:17 And because of the disobidience in the Jews they suffered. But Christ will be revealed to them and they will repent.

Why do you think Satan wants to put his name where God put his?

 

[believers]

Rom 11:26 specifically calls out the Jews, not the Gentiles. So that arguement does not hold water. So that the fulfillment of the Gentiles can take place. The Jews are NOT the gentiles.

Rom 9:27 is the 144,000 (12000 from each tribe of Israel) as mentioned in Revelations for they did not defile themselves.

John 14:6 - Read the Zechariah passages that I included pertaining to the Jews. They make reference to them recognizing him as the Messiah and repenting. So that conforms to what I’m saying.

I’ll comment on the others later for I have to run. Learn to accept God’s word, not reject them. These are clear, not parables and metaphors.

Israel = Jews (the circumsized) before Christ who keep the Law of Moses UNTIL the time of Jesus.
Israel = Jews who believe in Christ as the Son of God
Israel = Believing Jews and Gentiles who believe the Gospel.

All can now be saved thru Jesus Christ.

Israel refers to the seed of Abraham and those gentiles who have believed on the Jesus as the Son of God. NOT JUST JEWS.

Eph 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

As you know, Jesus, a Jew, said this to the Jews…

Jhn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Romans 11:6 does not call out the Jews… it calls out Israel. More specifically, the seed of Abraham. When Jesus came on the scene… you must believe on Him to be the seed of Abraham. No longer was circumcision and law in effect.

1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[rciadan]

Exactly RCIAdan. God’s plan of salvation includes everyone. But the reality is not everyone will be saved or else there would be no need for hell.

You are in line with the infallable teachings of the Catholic Church with that statement.