Protestant SAINTS?

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are there any Protestant saints that Catholics should venerate and pray for - are there any Protestant martyrs as saints - twinc
 
All saints, by definition, are Catholic. The title ‘Saint’ is applied when the Pope exercises his charism (sp?) of infallibility to declare that a soul went straight to heaven. Now, there could be Protestants who meet this criteria, but I don’t think the Holy See has ever declared anyone who is not in full communion with the church as a saint.

All souls in heaven are saints, and we certainly will see some of our Protestant brothers and sisters there, but I don’t think the church can or would declare a Protestant a saint.
 
" No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

You could argue that they were, somehow invisibly, within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church perhaps. But only God knows. I think it would be inappropriate to pray to them. It would be better to pray for them.
and we certainly will see some of our Protestant brothers and sisters there,
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How do you know that? I certainly hope we do, but I am not certain we will. 🤷
 
=twinc;6903935]are there any Protestant saints that Catholics should venerate and pray for - are there any Protestant martyrs as saints - twinc
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Not in the Catholic Understanding of the TITLE “Saints” [capitol S] becaue only the CC has a process of extensive study and review of there entire lifes work before making the Official Procumation.

Are there Protestat saints all those in heven BUT without formal recogination by the CC]?
Absolutely.

And they are included in our prayers on “All saints day” [Nov. 2 I think?].
 
Are there Protestat saints all those in heven BUT without formal recogination by the CC]?
Absolutely.
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You can’t know that. You can only hope that.
 
twinc said:
are there any Protestant saints that Catholics should venerate and pray for - are there any Protestant martyrs as saints - twinc
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No.

Should someone accept the law’s and church of God to go into heaven, they would be Catholic by default.

Does this mean it impossible for a Protestant to go to heaven? NO.
It means their conversion to the Catholic faith would happen as they enter heaven and realize the fullness of God’s word.
 
vz71 said:
No.

Should someone accept the law’s and church of God to go into heaven, they would be Catholic by default.
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Yup. Everyone is Catholic in heaven.
Does this mean it impossible for a Protestant to go to heaven? NO.
It means their conversion to the Catholic faith would happen as they enter heaven and realize the fullness of God’s word.
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I’m not sure the Church teaches that one can change their mind after death. Can you find a Church teaching that reflects this? It seems to me the person would have to make a perfect act of contrition in their last moments before death.
 
mattwcu said:
I’m not sure the Church teaches that one can change their mind after death. Can you find a Church teaching that reflects this? It seems to me the person would have to make a perfect act of contrition in their last moments before death.
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No one does.
But the error of their misunderstanding would have to be corrected somewhere.
Perhaps purgatory.
 
I think there is a big difference between coming to a full understanding and conversion to the Catholic Faith.

Conversion implies a change in direction. At any rate, I’m not sure whether we are agreeing or disagreeing. :juggle:

Nevertheless, I think the question has been answered that there are no “Protestant” saints in heaven. Everyone in heaven is Catholic. People in heaven aren’t protesting anything.
 
mattwcu said:
" No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

You could argue that they were, somehow invisibly, within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church perhaps. But only God knows. I think it would be inappropriate to pray to them. It would be better to pray for them.

How do you know that? I certainly hope we do, but I am not certain we will. 🤷
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I know that we will. Not everyone who claims the title “Catholic” is in Christ. There are some who are in Christ that appear to be outside the Church. I, for one, am not holy enough to declare the Protestants have the door closed to them. You also must understand that Papal Bulls are not infallible statements. We should give our assent, but they are not Extraordinary Magisterium, and are therefore reformable. This particular one has been.
 
Carl - you absolutely do not know. You claim you are not holy enough to know that you won’t, but you claim you know you will?

And if you have to give your assent, then you have to give it, as you have said. Right?🤷
 
My grandfather always said all who baptized and believed would go to heaven, but it was obvious God was Lutheran.
 
mattwcu said:
Carl - you absolutely do not know. You claim you are not holy enough to know that you won’t, but you claim you know you will?

And if you have to give your assent, then you have to give it, as you have said. Right?🤷
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In light of infallible statements,it is obvious that the Bull you refer to has been abrogated.
 
CWBetts said:
In light of infallible statements,it is obvious that the Bull you refer to has been abrogated.
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First off, I’m not so sure that papal bull is not infallible. Nevertheless, can you cite for me one of these infallible statements which assures us, since you say you know, that Protestants believing as they do and never coming to understand the True Faith as taught by Christ and his Church are in Heaven?🤷

Also - abrogation is a legal term. Here, Fr. Hardon gives us the definition: (via catholicreference.net)

In ecclesiastical law the total abolition of a law, right, duty, or privilege. (Etym. Latin abrogare, to repeat a law, abrogate.)

Can you please cite for me the abrogation of the Papal Bull? I know customs can be abrogated by replacement but that is not part of this topic.
 
The most famous papal bull that has caused much “consternation” amongst the “all inclusive” crowd who wants to populate heaven with Catholics, Buddhists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Southern Baptist, including those who have encountered and been taught about the Catholic faith, but nevertheless knowingly rejected it, is the bull by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, which stated:

“We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her’ (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

As no doubt has ever existed that this was an infallible dogma taught by the Holy Father at that time, by definition, it could never be abrogated by anyone or anything. Dogmas are not subject to being overturned like some US Supreme Court case when a new makeup of the court comes along.

“Truths” are those “inconvenient” things that often get in the way of those who want to water down hard, absolute teachings in the hope of promoting ecumenism.

I, for one, will NEVER say who is or who is not going to heaven - that is God’s call.
 
Um, no. It doesn’t give us any assurance.

Here it is:
  1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
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I have read this many times. All this says is (in a very wordy manner) that the gifts of the Holy Spirit and some elements of the fullness of the Faith are found outside some of Her visible structures. Nobody, least of all Yours Truly, a convert from Protestantism, denies that. Further, Vatican II was a pastoral council and defined no new dogmas of the faith. It must be understood in light of Tradition or it will never be understood at all.

The preliminary note to Lumen Gentium:
“Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding. The rest of the things which the sacred Council sets forth, inasmuch as they are the teaching of the Church’s supreme magisterium, ought to be accepted and embraced by each and every one of Christ’s faithful according to the mind of the sacred Council. The mind of the Council becomes known either from the matter treated or from its manner of speaking, in accordance with the norms of theological interpretation.”
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Again, please show an infallible statement which assures you that Protestants who denied unto death the Catholic faith are in Heaven.

I simply leave this up to God. You appear to know.

Just so you know, I am not a Feeneyite but I deal with them and have engaged with them in argument several times.
 
mattwcu said:
Yup. Everyone is Catholic in heaven.

I’m not sure the Church teaches that one can change their mind after death. Can you find a Church teaching that reflects this? It seems to me the person would have to make a perfect act of contrition in their last moments before death.
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Do you think that the Harrowing of Hell makes a difference?
 
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