Protestant SAINTS?

[mattwcu]

Do you think that the Harrowing of Hell makes a difference?

Christ’s decent into Hell, or rather the Limbo of the Fathers,doesn’t really apply to whether someone can choose a different path after death.

 

[distracted]

" No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

You could argue that they were, somehow invisibly, within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church perhaps. But only God knows. I think it would be inappropriate to pray to them. It would be better to pray for them.

How do you know that? I certainly hope we do, but I am not certain we will.

i tend to think they spend more time in Purg than Catholics and some reliable Catholic source says so… but i don’t believe all protestants are kept out of Heaven… becasue some are more Catholic… well, more catholic than even some Catholics… I mean nancy Pelosi calls herself Catholic… and i know non-C’s who really fight against abortion… so… uh… Define Catholic…

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Getting back to the OP’s question:

I certainly don’t believe there has been a formal proclamation of any Protestant as a canonized “saint” in our tradition, nor could I imagine one taking place. However, I do recall that at the time St. Maximillian Kolbe was canonized, there was a papal remark, possibly at the canonization Mass, referring to the also-martyred-by-the-Nazis Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as “also sharing the same reward.” I have tried to locate this on the Internet but have been unable. But I do recall its being reported. So with the definition of a “saint” being someone who is in Heaven . . . . .

 

[mattwcu]

If that was said it would only be a pious opinion, perhaps even a scandal, but it is certainly not a canonization.

 

[distracted]

The most famous papal bull that has caused much “consternation” amongst the “all inclusive” crowd who wants to populate heaven with Catholics, Buddhists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Southern Baptist, including those who have encountered and been taught about the Catholic faith, but nevertheless knowingly rejected it, is the bull by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, which stated:

“We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her’ (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

As no doubt has ever existed that this was an infallible dogma taught by the Holy Father at that time, by definition, it could never be abrogated by anyone or anything. Dogmas are not subject to being overturned like some US Supreme Court case when a new makeup of the court comes along.

“Truths” are those “inconvenient” things that often get in the way of those who want to water down hard, absolute teachings in the hope of promoting ecumenism.

I, for one, will NEVER say who is or who is not going to heaven - that is God’s call.

so how is it that the modern Church teaches something totally different?? who are we to belive?

 

[CWBetts]

so how is it that the modern Church teaches something totally different?? who are we to belive?

As explained before, Papal bulls are not infallible. If they were, thenn we would be deemed territories of Spain.

 

[mattwcu]

Bulls are not fallible by their nature of being bulls. Some can, or even some parts can be infallible.

Can you show us how this particular bull is not infallible?

 

[distracted]

Getting back to the OP’s question:

I certainly don’t believe there has been a formal proclamation of any Protestant as a canonized “saint” in our tradition, nor could I imagine one taking place. However, I do recall that at the time St. Maximillian Kolbe was canonized, there was a papal remark, possibly at the canonization Mass, referring to the also-martyred-by-the-Nazis Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as “also sharing the same reward.” I have tried to locate this on the Internet but have been unable. But I do recall its being reported. So with the definition of a “saint” being someone who is in Heaven . . . . .

if Bonhoeffer had lived longer, he may have converted to Cathlicism…

i believe his love for the Word made him a “Catholic”… albeit imperfectly…

so he probably went to Purgatory, but who knows but God…? He made many choices that he must have realized would endanger him but he did them becaue they were the right things to do… the courageous thing to do… so i feel he may have gone straight to Heaven… Again, God knows…

 

[distracted]

As explained before, Papal bulls are not infallible. If they were, thenn we would be deemed territories of Spain.

so it was in a bull that it was declared that a person must be Catholic to be saved??

 

[CWBetts]

so it was in a bull that it was declared that a person must be Catholic to be saved??

That is what was quoted. And Dogmatic Constitution, Lumen Gentium, explains that there is a unity between Protestants and Catholics, though the fullness of Truth subsits in the Catholic Church alone.

 

[distracted]

That is what was quoted. And Dogmatic Constitution, Lumen Gentium, explains that there is a unity between Protestants and Catholics, though the fullness of Truth subsits in the Catholic Church alone.

isn’t LG an encyclical?

is that infallible?

sorry i never learned this kind of stuff…

 

[CWBetts]

isn’t LG an encyclical?

is that infallible?

sorry i never learned this kind of stuff…

It is infallible, but it is not an Encyclical (which are generally not infallible). It is a conciliar document.

 

[alpharomeo3]

I think it would be unwise to say that Protestants don’t go or cannot go to heaven.
Nobody can judge another person’s heart fully but god himself. I think if a person knew that the Catholic Church was the true and apostolic church and openly rejected it as being false would have a problem because they would openly reject the truth.
Christ talks about a kingdom pitted against it cannot stand. That being said Christ had to know that upon the cross and leaving the charge of the church into Peter’s hands he knew that man has a fallen nature and Concupiscence and that we would only argue and divide!
that is why he said I am sending one greater than I the holy spirit just as the holy spirit over shadowed Mary as the first body to carry Christ the first church in flesh the holy spirit, guides all Christians baptized in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit, into his spiritual body the church. The one person i could use as an example would be martin Luther he believed in the teachings of the church but defied the pope on the principle that the bible belonged to the people and did however realized that his division caused more harm than good the greater argument is it by faith alone I think this what Luther was ultimately trying to allude to is that it’s not up to man to decide whether or not we a deemed or not to go to heaven the fallibility of the pope on extends to when the pope is guiding the church doctrinally guiding the church though the holy spirit the pope did excommunicate Martin Luther. But I do not believe he was in a position of infallibility at the moment. However a person is only declared a saint by their actions as a Christian miracles and works a saint is example of a person that has made it to heaven and serves as a role for other Christians to follow.

So yes I find hard to believe not knowing Martin Luther heart or much of anything because it was 1500 AD but let’s say he had lead a perfect life and died went to heaven and peter at the gate and there about let him in the gates and peter says wait he had the one run with Pope Leo X we can’t let him in
(“I’m not saying that Martin Luther is a saint.”)
It’s like a inheriting a mansion and getting because of having a mister miner.
It’s my hope that Protestants and Catholics can both say hey as members of the body of Christ this is where I messed up! Ok gee I guessed I goofed here! “Wow thank god we serve a loving and just God and sacrificed his only son thank god he wouldn’t sacrifice his son knowing that too adopted kids were going to mess it all up!

“It’s not like all of salvation depends on it,” let’s keep perspective on things!
All that said I’m a catholic but thanks Mr. Luther for my bible!

 

[mattwcu]

Lumen Gentium does not say that Protestants go to heaven. It says there is partial unity btw, not unity. And even that must be weighed with an ear to Tradition, especially councils like Trent. If we are going to use documents them we have to use them fairly.

Unity does not get anyone to heaven by itself or all Catholics would go to heaven.

Going to heaven means you die in a state of grace. You do that normally by availing yourself of the sacraments, such as confession, which is not ordinarily available to Protestants.

Any of the baptized, heretic or Catholic, may do his best to make a perfect act of contrition before death for the remission of sins if the Sacraments are not available. But the act must be perfect, not just because you are afraid of going to Hell, but with true sorrow for offending God.

I don’t really know why it is so difficult to just assent to Church teaching on this one guys. There are ample resources available on this topic.

 

[alpharomeo3]

Isn’t there something that say’s that the person would fully have to know that the church is the true church and then if they reject it would then deny themself of salvation.

Obviously they church has the fullness of the sacraments the primacy of peter but I cannot see someone being at faulted for not knowing there at fault. There is a term for this I just can’t think of it now.

Especially not after years of be misled. Even if someone confessed there sins and didn’t have remorse or act of contrition not a perfect but a basic remorse for the sin it is invalid by the person unwillingness to receive grace.

The fact that some places may not offer confession or the Christian doesn’t know that an act of confession is in fact a way to salvation god doesn’t fault them for the misunderstanding because there are times that a church is persecuted.
in that area like in world war II and the priest cannot openly perform confessions then those sins are not absolved it’s up to the sinner act of contrition to god to be forgiven there are reasons.
besides being scriptural that one it helps lesson guilt sometimes a sin can repeat itself in the persons mind over and over so just at a psychological stand point hearing the priest say I absolve you lessons guilt not to mention the priest is ordained by god to take the sin offering by your omission to the sin. Christ’s onetime sacrifice the priest physical representation of Christ. Has the power to absolve your sin it goes back to the Old Testament
There definitely needs to be a clear voice and those who except the church teachings to stand on solid ground but there is a way to meet people where there at. (dont we have all saints day and all souls day)

 

[CWBetts]

Lumen Gentium does not say that Protestants go to heaven. It says there is partial unity btw, not unity. And even that must be weighed with an ear to Tradition, especially councils like Trent. If we are going to use documents them we have to use them fairly.

Unity does not get anyone to heaven by itself or all Catholics would go to heaven.

Going to heaven means you die in a state of grace. You do that normally by availing yourself of the sacraments, such as confession, which is not ordinarily available to Protestants.

Any of the baptized, heretic or Catholic, may do his best to make a perfect act of contrition before death for the remission of sins if the Sacraments are not available. But the act must be perfect, not just because you are afraid of going to Hell, but with true sorrow for offending God.

I don’t really know why it is so difficult to just assent to Church teaching on this one guys. There are ample resources available on this topic.

The one who is refusing to assent is you. Protestants are not automatically blocked from heaven, as you seem to think.

 

[mattwcu]

I don’t even know what you mean by “automatically blocked from heaven”, which I have never said.

The Church clearly teaches you must be in the state of grace to go to Heaven and provides the means to do so. Protestants, who cannot normally avail themselves of these may make a perfect act of contrition and them we leave it up to God.

Again, what is so difficult about this?

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t even know what you mean by “automatically blocked from heaven”, which I have never said.

The Church clearly teaches you must be in the state of grace to go to Heaven and provides the means to do so. Protestants, who cannot normally avail themselves of these may make a perfect act of contrition and them we leave it up to God.

Again, what is so difficult about this?

Nothing other than you triumphalism.

 

[mattwcu]

Stating Church teaching clearly is not triumphalism.

The conversation has now officially run aground. So I’m out unless something meaningful is said.

 

[CWBetts]

Stating Church teaching clearly is not triumphalism.

The conversation has now officially run aground. So I’m out unless something meaningful is said.

It is rea;;y this simple. God desires that all men come to repentance. If this is God’s will, then there must me a way not revealed to us that this would be possible for non-Catholics. Since it is not revealed, we do not know what it is. Your definitive declaration of how it happens is not authentic Church teaching. I have no Idea where you got it. The fact is WE DO NOT KNOW. So stop pretending that you do know how non-Catholics will be saved. You don’t know.