Protestant "Saints"

[christcnection1]

Be careful how you judge the wealth of Rev. Graham! The Bible specifically says that the *love *of money is the problem, not money itself. I see no reason why Rev. Graham’s presumed wealth should be held against him.

And to repeat myself, I’m not judging the man. I *do not *know his heart. All I’m saying is that he has not voluntarily decided to renounce his wealth. That seems pretty obvious.

The reality is, he could help tens of thousands if he was willing to surrender his vast riches. This goes for any wealthy persons.

However, I would not be surprised if God held this against him, but that’s not for me to determine. I’m not God. Capisce?

 

[Lurker]

With regards to the Rev. Billy Graham’s wealth. While he may be able to help millions by selling everything and donating it, he is also hhelping millions by using it to help fund his evangelization crusades. It seems to me the cries of “Billy Graham should sell his stuff for the poor” echo the cries of “The Catholic Church should sell it’s art and fancy churches to help the poor.”

But that’s my humble opinion.

I admire Billy Graham and remember that in one of my dark times when I called in to one of his crusades, I found someone to listen and pray for me when I needed it.

 

[christcnection1]

You might find these links helpful. I’m focusing more on individuals rather than institutions.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=153704&highlight=Sell+Vatican+Art

davidmacd.com/catholic/isn_church_rich.htm

 

[christcnection1]

With regards to the Rev. Billy Graham’s wealth. While he may be able to help millions by selling everything and donating it, he is also hhelping millions by using it to help fund his evangelization crusades. It seems to me the cries of “Billy Graham should sell his stuff for the poor” echo the cries of “The Catholic Church should sell it’s art and fancy churches to help the poor.”

But that’s my humble opinion.

I admire Billy Graham and remember that in one of my dark times when I called in to one of his crusades, I found someone to listen and pray for me when I needed it.

You might find these links helpful. I’m focusing more on individuals rather than institutions.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=153704&highlight=Sell+Vatican+Art

davidmacd.com/catholic/isn_church_rich.htm

 

[Cat]

Billy Graham’s son, Franklin, started “Samaritan’s Purse” which is one of the best “relief” organizations around.

And Billy Graham may not have as much money as you think. He has a nice house, but I know a lot of Catholics who have nicer, bigger homes. He lives a simple lifestyle and always has.

 

[David_Zampino]

Be careful how you judge the wealth of Rev. Graham! The Bible specifically says that the *love *of money is the problem, not money itself. I see no reason why Rev. Graham’s presumed wealth should be held against him.

It also needs to be pointed out that Dr. Graham has been in the forefront of encouraging evangelical Protestant clergy and evangelists to be open and aboveboard with their finances.

In my view, the criticism on Dr. Graham is unfounded and untrue.

 

[David_Zampino]

There is no question all these individuals are heroic. I mean that with the utmost sincerity. I could only hope to have their zeal and dedication!

That being said, I still don’t think they have the same degree of zeal as Catholic Saints. Their degree of holiness and willingness to suffer seems to me unparalleled. (Perhaps some Eastern Orthodox Saints fit the bill) Far fewer Protestants remained celibate and reject all personal possessions.

I think that you go way too far here. The examples of Christian heroicism among many Eurpoean Protestants during the Nazi regeime are every bit as sacrificial as their Catholic, Orthodox, and Jewish counterparts.

Also – where do you get the idea that all Catholic saints remained celibate and rejected all personal possessions? I don’t think that you can make that claim stand up!!!

 

[David_Zampino]

And to repeat myself, I’m not judging the man. I *do not *know his heart. All I’m saying is that he has not voluntarily decided to renounce his wealth. That seems pretty obvious.

The reality is, he could help tens of thousands if he was willing to surrender his vast riches. This goes for any wealthy persons.

However, I would not be surprised if God held this against him, but that’s not for me to determine. I’m not God. Capisce?

Sorry – but as I read your posts – you are judging – and very harshly. My guess is that if a Protestant were judging a Catholic in this manner, you might get a tad defensive.

You have no idea of what his salary is.

You have no idea of what his net worth is.

You have no idea as to what his pattern of giving is.

You don’t, in my view, have the moral right to make this judgment – unless you have some additional “inside information” you’d like to share with the rest of us!!!

 

[christcnection1]

Sorry – but as I read your posts – you are judging – and very harshly. My guess is that if a Protestant were judging a Catholic in this manner, you might get a tad defensive.

You have no idea of what his salary is.

You have no idea of what his net worth is.

You have no idea as to what his pattern of giving is.

You don’t, in my view, have the moral right to make this judgment – unless you have some additional “inside information” you’d like to share with the rest of us!!!

I don’t even care. That’s not even my point. The Lord knows my heart. I’m happy to leave it at that.

You my friend, appear to be judging me by claiming that I’m judging others, and that’s simply not the case. If I’m lying, I’m in mortal sin. If you are, I forgive you from my heart. If you’re not, please forgive me.

I have great respect and admiration for Mr. Graham. I would be happy to leave him, Benny Hinn, or any televangelist out of it.

All I’m asking is who is the Mother Theresa equivalent? Who is the Saint Francis equivalent? Who is the Saint John Vianny equivolent? (equivalent meaning similar lifestyle and track record, over a long period of time.) Obviously there are hundreds of other Catholic Saints.

Am I wrong in believing that the Sacraments and graces given through our holy faith have enabled these individuals to have extraordinary, and perhaps unparalleled lives? *This is my point. This is my question. *

If there are equivalents, I would like to know. These people are surely heroes in the faith too, and worthy to be recognized!

The contributions so far have been good.

 

[THutch04]

There is no question all these individuals are heroic. I mean that with the utmost sincerity. I could only hope to have their zeal and dedication!

That being said, I still don’t think they have the same degree of zeal as Catholic Saints. Their degree of holiness and willingness to suffer seems to me unparalleled. (Perhaps some Eastern Orthodox Saints fit the bill) Far fewer Protestants remained celibate and reject all personal possessions.

For example, for all the good Billy Graham has done, he is a very wealthy man. I would not be surprised if Almighty held that against him in a serious way; for we know what the Bible says about the love of money. (But I can’t look into his heart. Neither am I judging.)

My point is that who compares to Catholic Saints? I don’t think anyone. I largely attribute that to graces given through the Sacraments, the intercession of the Saints (especially the Blessed Virgin), and our understanding of justification (infused righteousness - ideas have consequences).

Thoughts?

See, I think when you get into things like “person X has more zeal for the faith because of doing y” you run the risk of saying that in order to truly be a holy figure, you have to do certain things. Celibacy and voluntary poverty is a wonderful example of holiness (and I don’t think it’s recognized as much as it should be), it’s certainly needed in the Church. However, not everyone is called to this form of sacrifice. I’d be very cautious about implying that one aspect of self sacrifice and dedication is “more” important than another, because all forms are needed. Who’s to say that Gianna Beretta Molla, a working woman, is any less of a dedicated Catholic than Mother Theresa? Both did wonderful things that are examples all of us can look towards. That’s what makes the Catholic Church so wonderful in my opinoin; it’s not just a place for one type of person, we’re all called to holiness and trying to become saints.

I guess the one thing that all the amazing people have in common (Catholic and Protestant alike) is that they were ordinary people who were called to do extraordinary things.

 

[Greg27]

While Protestants do not have canonised saints, Protestants do have many people filled with holiness and righteousness and a determination for Christ which they admire as exemplars of their faith. Some Protestants who come to mind in this regard are:

John Wesley
John Edwards
William Law
John Calvin
Martin Luther
Dietrich Bonhoffer
Soren Kierkegaard (also admired by many philosophers, including Wittgenstein, as a ‘saint’)
C.S. Lewis

I am sure there are others one could add to the list. Holiness is not confined to Catholicism alone.

 

[christcnection1]

I am sure there are others one could add to the list. Holiness is not confined to Catholicism alone.

Never implied it was. In fact, that would contradict what I have been saying all along.

Let me narrow the question then…

Our Lord commanded us to be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Do you believe the graces God has given through His Holy Catholic Church to His people make any different the that end? (Complete Sanctity and holiness)

 

[christcnection1]

See, I think when you get into things like “person X has more zeal for the faith because of doing y” you run the risk of saying that in order to truly be a holy figure, you have to do certain things. Celibacy and voluntary poverty is a wonderful example of holiness (and I don’t think it’s recognized as much as it should be), it’s certainly needed in the Church. However, not everyone is called to this form of sacrifice. I’d be very cautious about implying that one aspect of self sacrifice and dedication is “more” important than another, because all forms are needed. Who’s to say that Gianna Beretta Molla, a working woman, is any less of a dedicated Catholic than Mother Theresa? Both did wonderful things that are examples all of us can look towards. That’s what makes the Catholic Church so wonderful in my opinoin; it’s not just a place for one type of person, we’re all called to holiness and trying to become saints.

I guess the one thing that all the amazing people have in common (Catholic and Protestant alike) is that they were ordinary people who were called to do extraordinary things.

I totally agree with you, so allow me to narrow my question again.

Do the graces God gives through His Holy Catholic Church make any different toward Jesus command to be perfect, as His Father in Heaven is perfect?

Would you say that every Christian, regardless of denomination or belief is equally able to come to a place of perfect sanctity, or become Saints?

I would say no. God has given the Sacraments, the Blessed Mother, the teaching authority, and other graces to make a real difference in His people. As a result, His Catholic fold is more capable of living the type of life He has called to.

Furthermore, I believe the “proof is in the pudding,” however it’s lived out, as you accurately portrayed it.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

There is no question all these individuals are heroic. I mean that with the utmost sincerity. I could only hope to have their zeal and dedication!

That being said, I still don’t think they have the same degree of zeal as Catholic Saints. Their degree of holiness and willingness to suffer seems to me unparalleled. (Perhaps some Eastern Orthodox Saints fit the bill) Far fewer Protestants remained celibate and reject all personal possessions.

For example, for all the good Billy Graham has done, he is a very wealthy man. I would not be surprised if Almighty held that against him in a serious way; for we know what the Bible says about the love of money. (But I can’t look into his heart. Neither am I judging.)

My point is that who compares to Catholic Saints? I don’t think anyone. I largely attribute that to graces given through the Sacraments, the intercession of the Saints (especially the Blessed Virgin), and our understanding of justification (infused righteousness - ideas have consequences).

Thoughts?

There are a number of Evangelicals. I’m really bad a remembering there names.

Amy Carmichael was born in northern Ireland in 1867 to a well to do family.

In 1895, she was commissioned by the Church of England Zenana Missionary Society to go to Dohnavur, India, where she served fifty-six years as God’s devoted servant. A major part of her work there was devoted to rescuing children who had been dedicated by their families to be temple prostitutes.

There also was David Livingston, Albert Switzer and Billy Grahams wifes parents who were missionaries to China.

About three years ago there were three North Korean pastors martyred.

In Afghanistan two women missionaries were rescued by the US. armed forces from the Taliban’

There are three women missionaries who have a health clinic in Pakistan and another woman who has one in Lebanon.

 

[Randy_Carson]

While Protestants do not have canonised saints, Protestants do have many people filled with holiness and righteousness and a determination for Christ which they admire as exemplars of their faith. Some Protestants who come to mind in this regard are:

John Wesley
John Edwards
William Law
John Calvin
Martin Luther
Dietrich Bonhoffer
Soren Kierkegaard (also admired by many philosophers, including Wittgenstein, as a ‘saint’)
C.S. Lewis

I am sure there are others one could add to the list. Holiness is not confined to Catholicism alone.

For all their “contributions”, I’m not sure “personal holiness” is an attribute frequently attributed to Luther or Calvin. :nope:

 

[David_Zampino]

For all their “contributions”, I’m not sure “personal holiness” is an attribute frequently attributed to Luther or Calvin. :nope:

I tend to agree!

 

[Cat]

Our Lord watched people putting money into the box outside the temple. Some people put tremendous amounts of money into the box, but a poor widow put in only two mites.

Jesus told His disciples that she gave the most, because she gave everything she had.

I think that we will all be surprised who is the most honored saint in heaven. Perhaps a janitor or a nurse or a person with locked-in syndrome who spent their whole life in a wheelchair will be more honored in heaven then some of the best-known saints.

Many people give “all that they have” and receive absolutely NO recognition for it. They are completely anonymous and not even at their funeral are their good words for Our Lord made public. IMO, these are the greatest saints of all, and only the Lord knows who they are.

So IMO, to compare the good works and holiness of various Christians is meaningless. The person who is least in the eyes of men is most important in the eyes of God.

When it comes to Billy Graham’s personal wealth being used to feed the poor, I can testify as an ex-Protestant that he was one of the first of the modern evangelicals to advocate sacrificial giving to feed the hungry, and he has never taught a “Health and Wealth” gospel like so many other “televangelists.” Samaritan’s Purse was born out of that concern for the needy.

 

[ronnok20]

Another some Protestants consider a saint (at least the Anglican Church does, I believe) is C. S. Lewis. His life and writings inspired millions and still do today.

C.S. Lewis was Anglican. Many Catholics think that he was Catholic which is dead wrong.

 

[Della]

This is correct. Much to Lewis’s probable chagrin, the Episcopal church HAS added him to their calendar! The prayer assigned for his date in the Episcopalian calendar goes like this:

O God of searing truth and surpassing beauty, we give you thanks for Clive Staples Lewis, whose sanctified imagination lights fires of faith in young and old alike. Surprise us also with your joy and draw us into that new and abundant life which is ours in Christ Jesus, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.

Yes, I heard about that. I too have to wonder if Lewis would have liked the idea. Although, the prayer does capture his contribution to the Christian faith and his own spirituality pretty well.

ronnok20:

C.S. Lewis was Anglican. Many Catholics think that he was Catholic which is dead wrong.

That’s true. Protestants of every kind like to claim him, but he was an Anglican through and through. And while he understood and could sympathize with Evangelical Christianity, he never felt it was for him–as he never thought Catholicism was for him, either. But, when push comes to shove, he was a lot closer to the Catholic understanding of Church and spirituality than to Evangelical.

 

[David_Zampino]

That’s true. Protestants of every kind like to claim him, but he was an Anglican through and through. And while he understood and could sympathize with Evangelical Christianity, he never felt it was for him–as he never thought Catholicism was for him, either. But, when push comes to shove, he was a lot closer to the Catholic understanding of Church and spirituality than to Evangelical.

Indeed – FAR closer!

Lewis often claimed that he did not participate in the various “high” vs. “low” debates common in Anglicanism in his day. However, he attended a “high” parish for virtually all of his adult life; practiced auricular confession; believed in the Real Presence; believed in Purgatory; and many/most of his friends – including the one who was most influential in his conversion – JRR Tolkien – were Catholics.

He also vehemently opposed any consideration of the “ordination” of women.

I strongly suspect that he would be a Catholic today.