Protestant saying hello

[jmcrae]

This still does not mean you know what the apostles taught orally. You do not know specifically what they taught orally. No one knows.

What exactly are you looking for, here?

You are aware, I assume, that the New Testament doesn’t record word-for-word what they said, either, right? Just the main gist of it, with explanations in between.

We get the gist of what they taught when we participate in the Sacraments and the life of the Church. I don’t think we can expect anything more than that, from any source.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This still does not mean you know what the apostles taught orally. You do not know specifically what they taught orally. No one knows.

what exactly do want to know about what the apostles taught taht the catholic church does not know about it?

 

[guanophore]

Before you became a catholic were your aware of all the different doctrines and practices of the catholic church?
How did you deal with the marian doctrines and praying to her?
Do you find going to a priest to be forgiven instead of God directly a benefit?

ja4, when Catholics celebrate the sacrament of reconciliation, the priest acts “in persona Christi’. He is there in the person and power of Christ. This is what He meant when He said " If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:23

Catholics don’t go to to a priest “instead of to God”, but we encounter God in HIs appointed representative. Yes, it is a great benefit to follow the pattern that Jesus set up for us to be reconciled to Himself, and to His Body. I hope someday you can experience the great grace of it.

But you nor your church knows exactly what these oral teachings of the apostles were.

Yes, we do know, ja4. And they don’t come in “lists”.

This still does not mean you know what the apostles taught orally. You do not know specifically what they taught orally. No one knows.

What would change, ja4, if you had to admit that the people that received those teachings, and preserved them, actually did know them?

 

[steve_b]

Welcome.

Well, things are probably going to be interesting for ahwile. I too am a convert from the Adventist Church. I had the advatage of converting after I was out of my mom’s house. I also attended an Episcopal Church for about four years prior to swimming the Tiber.

My mom didn’t say a whole lot, just a few remarks here and there. It was when I read something that she had written concerning me, somethig about how she and my family were praying that I would " reject the falacies of the Catholic Church" , that I realized that I better learn how to defend my faith.

So my advise to you is to learn as much as you can. Learn what both faiths teach and practice. Learn about the history of the church and read scripture. But most of all pray. Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in all things. The best way to show your family that you have let God guide you in your conversion is to let them see God working through you.

And of course this is a great place to go for answers if you get stumped. Feel free to PM me if you need to vent.

Julie

outstanding advice.

 

[steve_b]

Can you give me a couple of examples of what the apostles taught orally that is not in Scripture?

Jesus tells the crowds: “The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice” (Matt. 23:2-3).

Where do you find “Moses seat” in the OT? And where do you find that the scribes and Pharisees inherited that position of authority from Moses? This is oral tradition, and it IS valid and authoritative…

Now think of the Chair of Peter?

apostolic tradition in action
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp

 

[Milliardo]

But you nor your church knows exactly what these oral teachings of the apostles were.

On the contrary though; if the Church does not know, then where did we get the notion of Sunday worship (which most Protestants follow as well), Easter and Christmas celebrations (which, again, most Protestants also follow), and the Apostolic Tradition as a whole? We can also see how these teachings were preserved in the Liturgies celebrated by the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, Liturgies which go all the way back to the Apostles themselves. These and many things are known to the Church, and have been preserved by her throughout time.

 

[Lampo]

But you nor your church knows exactly what these oral teachings of the apostles were.

This is so untrue. Why do you say such things? Ancient tradition (oral tradition from the Apostles) has suggested that Mary moved with the Apostle John to Ephesus where she lived out her final days. Another tradition suggests that she stayed in Jerusalem since her family lived there.

We know *exactly *that these are two examples of oral teachings of the apostles. Let me reiterate: One oral teaching of the apostles is that Mary moved to Ephesus and the other oral teaching of the apostles is that she stayed in Jerusalem. Looks like you need to 86 your above statement.

 

[justasking4]

Milliardo;3423150]
Originally Posted by justasking4
But you nor your church knows exactly what these oral teachings of the apostles were.

Milliardo
On the contrary though; if the Church does not know, then where did we get the notion of Sunday worship (which most Protestants follow as well),

Scripture. Since Christ rose on a Sunday that was to be the day of worship.

Easter and Christmas celebrations (which, again, most Protestants also follow), and the Apostolic Tradition as a whole?
Christmas is not celebrrated in the Scriptures and did not happen for quite a number of centuries. There is no oral apostolic support for it.

We can also see how these teachings were preserved in the Liturgies celebrated by the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, Liturgies which go all the way back to the Apostles themselves. These and many things are known to the Church, and have been preserved by her throughout time.[/font

Can you give me a couple of examples that can be traced back to an oral tradition of the apostles?

[/quote]

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;3423497]
Originally Posted by justasking4
But you nor your church knows exactly what these oral teachings of the apostles were.

Lampo;
This is so untrue. Why do you say such things? Ancient tradition (oral tradition from the Apostles) has suggested that Mary moved with the Apostle John to Ephesus where she lived out her final days. Another tradition suggests that she stayed in Jerusalem since her family lived there.

Here is what some catholic scholars are saying about Mary’s assumption:
Roman Catholic writer Eamon Duffy concedes that, ‘there is, clearly, no historical evidence whatever for it …’ (Eamon Duffy, What Catholics Believe About Mary (London: Catholic Truth Society, 1989), p. 17). For centuries in the early Church there is complete silence regarding Mary’s end. The first mention of it is by Epiphanius in 377 A.D. and** he specifically states that no one knows what actually happened to Mary**. He lived near Palestine and if there were, in fact, a tradition in the Church generally believed and taught he would have affirmed it. But he clearly states that ‘her end no one knows.’ These are his words:
But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40).

These quotes are from experts in this area and are Roman Catholics themselves. Even they admit they don’t know nor does anyone…

Lampo;
We know *exactly *that these are two examples of oral teachings of the apostles. Let me reiterate: One oral teaching of the apostles is that Mary moved to Ephesus and the other oral teaching of the apostles is that she stayed in Jerusalem. Looks like you need to 86 your above statement.

What apostle and when did he say these things?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Can you give me a couple of examples of what the apostles taught orally that is not in Scripture?

steve b;
Jesus tells the crowds: “The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice” (Matt. 23:2-3).

Where do you find “Moses seat” in the OT? And where do you find that the scribes and Pharisees inherited that position of authority from Moses? This is oral tradition, and it IS valid and authoritative…

Now think of the Chair of Peter?

apostolic tradition in action
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp

This doesn’t tell us what an apostle said orally that is not in Scripture. Keep in mind i’m referring to the Apostles of the NT.

 

[Lampo]

Here is what some catholic scholars are saying about Mary’s assumption:…snip…
These quotes are from experts in this area and are Roman Catholics themselves. Even they admit they don’t know nor does anyone…

Great. They do not make up the infallible Magisterium of the Church.

What apostle and when did he say these things?

LOL! Bartholomew, 45AD. I don’t know which Apostle. I would need to research it.

 

[guanophore]

Scripture. Since Christ rose on a Sunday that was to be the day of worship.

Not so, ja4. Jesus did not abolish the Sabbath Day. He observed it Himself, as did all the Apostles. Jesus never is recorded anywhere saying that the Sabbath day (7th) was abolished. In fact, He demonstrated many times that the 10 commandments were to be held without question.

Easter and Christmas celebrations (which, again, most Protestants also follow), and the Apostolic Tradition as a whole?
Christmas is not celebrrated in the Scriptures and did not happen for quite a number of centuries. There is no oral apostolic support for it.

Shouldn’t it be forbidden, if it is not in your bible?

Can you give me a couple of examples that can be traced back to an oral tradition of the apostles?

The order of the Mass, praying for those who have gone on before us in the faith, veneration of the saints, that salvation is not obtained until the last day.

This doesn’t tell us what an apostle said orally that is not in Scripture. Keep in mind i’m referring to the Apostles of the NT.

It is not a matter of keeping things in or out of scripture, but that we have divine revelation outside of scripture that helps us understand scripture in the way that it was written.

 

[Lampo]

What apostle and when did he say these things?

Would it really matter to you if the Church does know? What if *all *of the apostles said this? What if the Church doesn’t know precisely which one, but does know that it was indeed passed orally from one of the apostles?

As to tradition, there is some testimony for Mary’s temporary residence in or near Ephesus, but the evidence for her permanent home in Jerusalem is much stronger.

Arguments for Ephesus

Mary’s Ephesian residence rests on the following evidence:

(1) A passage in the synodal letter of the Council of Ephesus [111] reads: “Wherefore also Nestorius, the instigator of the impious heresy, when he had come to the city of the Ephesians, where John the Theologian and the Virgin Mother of God St. Mary, estranging himself of his own accord from the gathering of the holy Fathers and Bishops. . .” Since St. John had lived in Ephesus and had been buried there [112], it has been inferred that the ellipsis of the synodal letter means either, “where John. . .and the Virgin. . .Mary lived”, or, “where John. . .and the Virgin. . .Mary lived and are buried”.

Taken from New Advent.

 

[Milliardo]

Scripture. Since Christ rose on a Sunday that was to be the day of worship.

Scripture never said we should worship on Sunday (this is the point of contention made by SDAs; of course Catholics reject their contention on various points, but the fact remains that you will never find anything that will tell you to worship on Sunday). It was a development that arouse after Jews expelled Christians from the synagogue–an event that’s not mentioned in the Bible either.

Christmas is not celebrrated in the Scriptures and did not happen for quite a number of centuries. There is no oral apostolic support for it.

As early as the 2nd century Christmas was already celebrated; the case for Easter is much clearer as Christians then already celebrated it apart from their Sunday worship.

Can you give me a couple of examples that can be traced back to an oral tradition of the apostles?

Already done. Unless you can cite a clear command from Scripture which would state we should worship on Sundays, then the only thing you’ll have to go on is that this was orally taught by the Apostles and observed by them, and Christians subsequently took this up as well.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3424767].

Originally Posted by justasking4
Scripture. Since Christ rose on a Sunday that was to be the day of worship.

guanophore
Not so, ja4. Jesus did not abolish the Sabbath Day. He observed it Himself, as did all the Apostles. Jesus never is recorded anywhere saying that the Sabbath day (7th) was abolished. In fact, He demonstrated many times that the 10 commandments were to be held without question.

Saturday is the Sabbath. How do catholics honor this day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Easter and Christmas celebrations (which, again, most Protestants also follow), and the Apostolic Tradition as a whole?
Christmas is not celebrrated in the Scriptures and did not happen for quite a number of centuries. There is no oral apostolic support for it.

guanophore
Shouldn’t it be forbidden, if it is not in your bible?

My point is that Christmas celebrations was unknown to the church for centuries. There were no christmas trees and gifts give to each for centuries.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3424767]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Can you give me a couple of examples that can be traced back to an oral tradition of the apostles?

guanophore
The order of the Mass, praying for those who have gone on before us in the faith, veneration of the saints, that salvation is not obtained until the last day.

Who was the first the apostle to have celebrated Mass after the Ascension?

What apostle taught you are to venerate saints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
This doesn’t tell us what an apostle said orally that is not in Scripture. Keep in mind i’m referring to the Apostles of the NT.

guanophore
It is not a matter of keeping things in or out of scripture, but that we have divine revelation outside of scripture that helps us understand scripture in the way that it was written.

So it is claimed. Who is the first person after the apostles that supposedly received this “divine revelation”?

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;3425028]
Originally Posted by justasking4
What apostle and when did he say these things?

Would it really matter to you if the Church does know? What if all of the apostles said this? What if the Church doesn’t know precisely which one, but does know that it was indeed passed orally from one of the apostles?

Lampo
Would it really matter to you if the Church does know? What if *all *of the apostles said this?

It would be priceless. To have something that an apostle supposedly said outside the NT would be such a treasure.

What if the Church doesn’t know precisely which one, but does know that it was indeed passed orally from one of the apostles?

Then all you have is speculations and speculations are but the opinions of men.

 

[pete_29]

Then all you have is speculations and speculations are but the opinions of men.

As are your speculations, that is unless you have an infallible interpretation of Scripture.

 

[justasking4]

Milliardo;3425393]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Scripture. Since Christ rose on a Sunday that was to be the day of worship.

Milliardo
Scripture never said we should worship on Sunday (this is the point of contention made by SDAs; of course Catholics reject their contention on various points, but the fact remains that you will never find anything that will tell you to worship on Sunday).

Here is a reference in Acts 20:7 where the day of worship for Christians is mentioned:
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.
The reference to the first day of the week is Sunday and the breaking of bread is reference to worship.

It was a development that arouse after Jews expelled Christians from the synagogue–an event that’s not mentioned in the Bible either.

True.

Quote: justasking4
Christmas is not celebrrated in the Scriptures and did not happen for quite a number of centuries. There is no oral apostolic support for it.
Milliardo
As early as the 2nd century Christmas was already celebrated;

Here is a historical reference to when Christmas was celebrated:
“for the first 300 years of Christianity, it wasn’t so. When was Christmas first celebrated? In an old list of Roman bishops, compiled in A. D. 354 these words appear for A.D. 336: “25 Dec.: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae.” December 25th, Christ born in Bethlehem, Judea. This day, December 25, 336, is the first recorded celebration of Christmas.
For the first three hundred years of the church’s existence, birthdays were not given much emphasis–not even the birth of Christ. The day on which a saint died was considered more significant than his or her birth, as it ushered him or her into the kingdom of heaven. Christ’s baptism received more attention than his birthday in the January 6th feast of Epiphany.” Christianity Today International

Milliardo
the case for Easter is much clearer as Christians then already celebrated it apart from their Sunday worship.

Agreed.

Quote:justasking4
Can you give me a couple of examples that can be traced back to an oral tradition of the apostles?

Milliardo
Already done.

Not so. All you have shown is that there were various things done in the past but no direct reference to an apostle instituting something outside the NT.

Unless you can cite a clear command from Scripture which would state we should worship on Sundays, then the only thing you’ll have to go on is that this was orally taught by the Apostles and observed by them, and Christians subsequently took this up as well.

See Acts 20:7

---

If a person truly wants to live, he can make any place he wants a heaven.–Yui Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion

 

[jonfan]

Interesting. The argument of “bible only evidence” is perhaps one of the biggest logical goofs there is. How do you think these stories and traditions were recorded in both the old and new testament? It didn’t drop out of the sky and surely Jesus just didn’t come down to write a book. Speaking of the traditions of men “The sinner’s prayer” strikes me as a modern tradition of man. I must have missed that in the gospels.