Protestant saying hello

[justinthemartyr]

you would not have the NT or the Ot as you do if it were not for the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church.

You are incorrect at your very foundation of the entire canon of scripture. it is a Catholic book, purely. written, protected, canonized, and even the chapters and verses were put in by the Catholic Church.


That is the greatest form of Sacred Tradition known to man.

You hold in your hand a purely catholic book, isn’t that great?

The entire foundation for your faith was given to you by the Catholic Church, your entire authority rests upon the Catholic Church’s tradition.

 

[guanophore]

Look, you keep telling us that “Traditions” atleast some of them, cannot be found in the Bible. (the NT). Lets hear just three of them. tell us what three of them are, or if that’s too much; just give us one or two “traditions” that would not be in the NT. Surely you can manage that? Your avoidance of an answer here speaks volumes.

(sigh…)

The table of Contents for the Bible, the docrine of the Trinity, and the transfer of the observation of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

If i’m not mistaken a few church fathers also said something like this including Jerome.

I don’t believe Jerome ever said such a thing.

He was Catholic, and all Catholics believe that doctrines are based on the Teachings of Jesus.

Where in the Bible does it say communion needs to be held atleast once a week?

Now you are showing yourself to be using ja4’s pattern. You ask for Traditions that are not in Scripture,then when we give you one, you say “where is that in the Bible”. Do you see how circular that is? What is the point?

Even with all the rantings here about the presence, and **how the priests in catholicism change Jesus into a piece of bread**; you have utterly failed to prove anything.

I find this characterization of the Holy Eucharist very disrespectful. It is not required here that you share our beliefs,but it is required that you not make rude remarks about our faith.

Giving web site links to places like “Scripture Catholic” is just a smoke screen. Barely one scripture there is quoted in context. That site makes the scriptures so confusing, one could never sort out what is really the point. It’s called “wresting the scriptures.” Also, we DO NOT have a once saved always saved doctrine.

Glad you have not fallen into OSAS error. The context of the NT is the Catholic Church. IT was written by, for, and about Catholics. Taking it out of Catholicism is what loses the context.

Now you are playing games. You & countless others have stated time and again how that “Tradition” is verily “the word of God,” and you know full well that this list is not such. What Catholic Tradition can you name, that is not found in the NT? (as many here have already claimed?) Name one, since two is also too much. This list you gave is only “tradition” with a lower case “t”

It is not a ‘game’. Catholics believe that the HS revealed to the Church (infallibly) which books belonged in the Bible. Therefore, this list is considered “the Word of God”. As I pointed out before, separating the NT from other Sacred Tradition is meaningless, because the whole of the NT came from Sacred Tradition. They are not intended to be separated. If you are really interested in understanding what Catholics believe on this matter, it would be a good start to accep that Catholics believe there is only one Divine Revelation, and that it reflects itself in holy scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium.

The Bible did not come with it’s own table of contents. The contents were revealed to the Church by God, just as the other Sacred Traditions are.

Just because their are differences about what the scriptures may mean does not mean that they are insufficent in which to ground doctrine on. Look at the catholic church itself. Even with a supposedly infallible leadership it still has all kinds of different beliefs and practices throughout it.

Disciplines and practices are not at the same level as doctrine. Of course doctrine should be supported by scripture. However, scripture does not “make” or"teach" doctrines. These are made (for Catholics) by Jesus, and given through the Apostles. One of the most beautiful aspects of the Catholic Church is that the doctrine is the same all over the world, even though disciplines and practices are different.

Take the understanding of the Scriptures themselves. Many catholics not only have different views that conflect with each other but there are also different beliefs among them on a broad range of issues and doctrines.

Irrelevant. There is one standard, and that is the Teaching. If individuals fail to embrace it,then to that extent, they are not Catholic in their belief.

Your church fails at this point

This seems to be a favorite phrase of yours, ja4. It reveals that your purpose here is not to understand Catholicism, but to disparage and criticize the Catholic Church.

in that they interpret some scriptures in ways that the apostles never did.

I understand how it would seem this way to you, since you have been completely separated from the Apostolic Succession.

Secondly, how do you interpret Scripture in light of Sacred Tradition when catholics i have talked to can’t even give a list of what these Sacred Traditions are? Maybe you know what they what they are. If so, can you give me a couple of examples?

Because it is a world view, and does not come in a “list”. There are examples above, which have been given to you before, and you have consistently rejected.

 

[jmcrae]

Well; we all know that, we need to see another example of Tradition not found in the NT as so many here have already stated that they exist.

You already know them. In fact, you have already pointed out many times in other threads that these traditions are not found in Scripture. So, why not simply do a search on your user name, and look at your own writings to find your list?

 

[Lampo]

Well; we all know that, we need to see another example of Tradition not found in the NT as so many here have already stated that they exist.

Why?

 

[Swan]

So, what causes the written word to be “infallible”? (Actually, it’s inerrant. “Infallible” means “can’t teach incorrectly.” The Bible doesn’t get up and teach anything, though.)

Is it not the charism of infallibility that was given by God to the men who were writing the books of the Bible that causes it to be inerrant?

(The Bible didn’t fall from the sky. The men who wrote it also weren’t under any kind of a magic spell.)

So, doesn’t it make sense that God continued to protect those men, and in due time, their successors, from promulgating error to the Church, by means of the charism of infallibility, which they were given when they wrote the books of the Bible?

Why would God ever withdraw this gift from these leaders, having once given it? It makes no sense.

How did “gates of hell shall not prevail” get interpreted as “never error”?

 

[jmcrae]

How did “gates of hell shall not prevail” get interpreted as “never error”?

The “gates of Hell” is the condition of being in error. Therefore, to be protected from the “gates of Hell” is to be protected from error.

 

[pismopal]

Have you looked for any prayers to dead saints or Mary in the Scriptures? Are there any examples or exhortations in the New Testament itself that tells us to pray to Mary or dead saints? Let me encourage you to ask your RCIA instructor about this. I’d be curious what he-she says.

I have another question for your RCIA instructor. Does a person have to go to a priest to be forgiven? If he-she says yes, ask where is this taught by the Scriptures.

OK Now I get it. Your questions are of the…where is that in the Bible variety. My friend I am not going to do your homework for you. If you are too lazy to look for yourself then you probably wouldn’t understand it anyway. I spent 2 years reading the Catechism along with the Bible citations that were supportive. Now you want some well meaning Catholic to spoon feed you while you sit back cackling like you really set a nice trap. Now the question for you is…the same questions that stump non Catholics every time. Where does it say in the Bible that all things to do with the faith will be found in the Bible? I have in my hands an Apologetics Concordance that you can order by calling 505-327 5343. I wanted the answers badly enough to buy one and study…how about you.

 

[pismopal]

just4asking

I encourage YOU to go to an RCIA class and ask the questions for yourself. My RCIA instructors are not available so that I can run down and ask them questions sent by a lazy…physically and mentally, person.

 

[Good_Fella]

Look, you keep telling us that “Traditions” atleast some of them, cannot be found in the Bible. (the NT). Lets hear just three of them. tell us what three of them are, or if that’s too much; just give us one or two “traditions” that would not be in the NT. Surely you can manage that? Your avoidance of an answer here speaks volumes.

These Protestant traditions are unbiblical:

1. Sola Scriptura

I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
{1Corinthians 11, 2}

1. Sola Fide

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?.. So faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
{James 2, 14-17}

1. Sola Christu

Now I rejoice in my suffering for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church.
{Colossians 1, 24}

These Catholic traditions are biblical:

1. Sacred Tradition

And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from ‘hearing’ us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe.
{1 Thessalonians 2, 13}

1. Mary invoked as the Mother of God

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord (‘adonai’ = “Lord God”) should come to me?”
{Luke 1, 43}

3.Power of the Intercessory Prayer of Mary and the Saints

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
{John 2, 3}

The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly for the rain to stop.
{James 5, 16-17}

Mary and the saints are not dead, but alive in heaven. (Only Mary has been resurrected until now, for being the mother of our Lord, she was honourably spared the corruption of the grave.)

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while fixing our eyes on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith.
{Hebrews 12, 1}

" For God said, ‘Honour your father and your mother. Anyone who curses his father or his mother must be put to death.’ "
{Matthew 15, 4}

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Protestant101]

(sigh…)

The table of Contents for the Bible, the docrine of the Trinity, and the transfer of the observation of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

Well why are you siging, and why did it take you so long to come out with it? Thankyou for posting this answer. Now; what I would be interested in doing is to document one or two references from official Catholic writings, that these 3 “Traditions”

a) cannot be found in the Bible
b) are based solely on the alleged “authority” of the Catholic Church

I am trying to figure out the Catholic understanding of the foundations of their Traditions.

 

[guanophore]

Yes. Since all men are fallen then anyone including the pope and magesterium could be and have been wrong. Only One Who has lived was truly infallible in interpreting the Scriptures.

As individuals, yes, they could. However, when Jesus speaks through the Church, His voice is infallible, and that is why the Doctrines of the Church are infallible. Remember, He said: He who hears you, hears me"?

Do you deny all men are fallen?

Certainly not, but you seem to think that the HS is too weak to enable people to live without sin, or to create anything inerrant.

Do you deny your popes and magesterium has been wrong at times?

I am aware of many personal sins of the part of Popes. There was no promise given that individuals would be prevented from error. I am not aware of any Pope or Magesterium that have infallibly declared anything wrong in faith and morals.

Whe the church is faithful to Christ and His Word then if fulfills this. When its not, it is not the support of the truth.

I agree. Catholics know that the Word of God is not limited to the Scripture, though.

Do you then consider all the 73 books in your Bible to be all the Traditions of your church?

You know, ja4, one of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. It is impossible to count how many times you have asked this question, apparetly expecting to get a different result each time. It has been made abundantly clear to you that Catholics believe that, although the whole of Scripture comes from Sacred Tradition, not all of Tradition is in the Scripture.

OK then. I won’t argue about this one for now; it would be a separate topic, but you have just proved that Tradition (so called) is NOT in the Bible; yet you say that your Tradition is “the Word of God??”

I am glad that you have been able to concede this point.

But surely, you can name atleast one more “tradition” not found in the NT? How difficult could that possibly be?

I did name a couple! Maybe you have not read them yet? The hypostatic union is another.

Because the written word is infallible; NOT people, including the Pope.!!

Actually, this is not the case. The charism of infallibility only applies to actions resulting from will. That is why doctrines of the Church are considered infallible, because they are made by people, working with the HS, choosing truth. Scripture is considered inspired-inerrant, but it does not have a “will” and cannot act, so cannot be fallible or infallibe.

The Word of God was given to others, well before the Catholic Church came into being.

Yes, and it was the Word of God as soon as it came. It did not “become” inspired thousands of years later when it was written down. It was preserved orally BECAUSE it was sacred and inspired.

The Bible, that is, the written word, always gives us examples of the spoken word which are ALWAYS found in scripture, as opposed to Catholic “Tradition” or “spoken word” which is rarely found in scripture.

Apparently you are not well acquainted enought with the Tradition to realize that most of it is paralleled in scripture. Are you trying to suggest that all of what Jesus and the Apostles said and did is found in Scripture?

ALL tradition must meet with agreement in the written word. Name ONE Catholic Tradition that does this.

There are no contradictions between Scripture and the Tradition. They both came from the same Source (God).

 

[justasking4]

just4asking

I encourage YOU to go to an RCIA class and ask the questions for yourself. My RCIA instructors are not available so that I can run down and ask them questions sent by a lazy…physically and mentally, person.

Your response is one of the best post i have had directed towards me.
Now i can add to this to my other list of hated comments of what i am. I’m actually waiting for someone to call me the anti christ or a heretic. Those names have not yet been used----

 

[jmcrae]

Well why are you siging, and why did it take you so long to come out with it? Thankyou for posting this answer. Now; what I would be interested in doing is to document one or two references from official Catholic writings, that these 3 “Traditions”

a) cannot be found in the Bible

Just ask any Oneness Pentecostal.

b) are based solely on the alleged “authority” of the Catholic Church

For that, you need to look at history. I recommend Denzinger’s The Sources of Catholic Dogma, which contains the English translation of all of the Councils of the Church up to and including Vatican I, and all of the decrees of Popes up to Pope Pius XII.

Everything else, (Vatican II, and all of the decrees since the time of Pope Pius XII) you can find at www.vatican.va.

I am trying to figure out the Catholic understanding of the foundations of their Traditions.

Jesus → Peter → all Popes since Peter
||______________
=====The Apostles
||______________
=====The Bishops, Successors of the Apostles

The Bishops, Successors of the Apostles in union with the Pope comprise the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. By Christ’s unfailing promise, it is protected by the Holy Spirit from ever teaching any error; therefore, if we trust Christ, then we show our trust in HIs promise, by believing and obeying the Magisterium.

 

[guanophore]

Explain to me where the idea that it is unbiblical came from? From what do you derive this statement?

This doctrine cannot be found anywhere in the bible. In fact, scripture states the opposite, that the Church is where disputes should be taken. In scripture we are commanded to keep the traditions, just as they were handed on to us.

This is what were asking. You claim that the Word of God is more than the Scriptures. This is why we want to see exactly and specifcally what this is. If this is truly the Word of God i want to know who spoke it, under what conditions and why it is considered the Word of God.

I don’t really believe this, ja4. I think you just want to make us jump through hoops, so that you can tell us that “it is not in the Bible, so it is just a speculation of men”. You see, much of Sacred Tradition has to do with how we understand the written tradition. For example, we have from the Apostles that John 6 is a sermon on the Eucharist. This has been held and believed by persons of Apostolic faiths from the day of the Last Supper. However, you will look at that passage and say that it does not mean what Catholics believe it means.

Are you familar with Mormonism? Its my understanding that they to believe in revelation not only in the Bible but in their other books. At least with them i can go and study what these supposedly other revelations of God can be found and studied.

Yes, I am familiar with this. God knock yourself out! I have not because I have my hands full studying what has come from the Apostles, and that contents me fine.

Catholics are making similar claims and yet refuse to tell us what they are specifically. It makes me believe they don’t exist.

Yes, well, I think you believed they did not exist long before you came to CAF. So, one has to ponder…why would you be haranging us about something you believe does not exist? What keeps you from letting go of this?

Then how do you identify specific Sacred Traditions outside the 73 books?

They are the Teachings of the Apostles, preserved and handed on to us by the Successors of the Apostles. They held fast to the Traditions they received as the Word of God. They appointed faithful men, who were able to teach others also.

That does not answer my question as to where you get your basis for “faith alone” being heretical. Where do you get that from?

The Apostolic Teaching. This is a new wave doctrine that has only emerged in the last 500 years.

Actually, they have some “Traditions” that cannot be found within the 66 books, but that can be found in one of the 73 books, which of course explains why they so desperately require them all to be “canon.”

But; lets wait and see if they can supply us with one more Tradition not found in the NT.

This is not the case. It is true that the books taken out do represent Catholic Doctrine, but so does the whole NT. The fact that they are canon is in no way a desperation. This is the canon that was declared by the infallible council, just like the council in the book of Acts. It is not appropriate to change the Teachings, and certainly not to jettison books that were in the collection used by Jesus and the Apostles.

Well; we all know that, we need to see another example of Tradition not found in the NT as so many here have already stated that they exist.

I listed a bunch this morning! But justinthemartyr just gave another one, the chapters and verses. The scrolls used to be in all same case, with no divisions.

How did “gates of hell shall not prevail” get interpreted as “never error”?

Because teaching, believing, and practicing error will lead one right through the gates of hell.

Well why are you siging, and why did it take you so long to come out with it? Thankyou for posting this answer. Now; what I would be interested in doing is to document one or two references from official Catholic writings, that these 3 “Traditions”

a) cannot be found in the Bible
b) are based solely on the alleged “authority” of the Catholic Church

I am sighing because this is a meaningless distinction. Catholics see no dichotomy between Scripture and Tradition. They are all part of the same deposit of faith. It is useless for us to try to separate them. Separating them is what has resulted in all the doctrinal disunity since the Reformation.

The whole NT is based solely on the authority of the Catholic Church. It was penned, preserved, and promulgated by Catholics, and is about Catholic beliefs.

I am trying to figure out the Catholic understanding of the foundations of their Traditions.

The origin of the Teachings (written and otherwise) are Jesus. He gave them to the Apostles, and they handed them on through the Apostolic Succesion.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Originally Posted by justasking4
This is what were asking. You claim that the Word of God is more than the Scriptures. This is why we want to see exactly and specifcally what this is. If this is truly the Word of God i want to know who spoke it, under what conditions and why it is considered the Word of God.

does your Bible have this verse? " the Church is the Pillar and Bullwark of Truth." if there is, what does that mean to you?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Originally Posted by Protestant101
The Bible, that is, the written word, always gives us examples of the spoken word which are ALWAYS found in scripture, as opposed to Catholic “Tradition” or “spoken word” which is rarely found in scripture.

i assume you are more qualified than the catholic church in enterpreting Scriptures?
How old are you?

 

[Protestant101]

OK Now I get it. Your questions are of the…where is that in the Bible variety. My friend I am not going to do your homework for you. If you are too lazy to look for yourself then you probably wouldn’t understand it anyway. I spent 2 years reading the Catechism along with the Bible citations that were supportive. Now you want some well meaning Catholic to spoon feed you while you sit back cackling like you really set a nice trap. Now the question for you is…the same questions that stump non Catholics every time. Where does it say in the Bible that all things to do with the faith will be found in the Bible? I have in my hands an Apologetics Concordance that you can order by calling 505-327 5343. I wanted the answers badly enough to buy one and study…how about you.

Such a denigrating answer only reinforces the fact that Catholics do not want to get their “Traditions” cornered by the Bible and proven wrong by the Bible. The stated purpose of this forum is to “compare and contrast differing religions.” Most of us here want to do that. If you don’t, then why are you here?

 

[Protestant101]

Originally Posted by Protestant101
The Bible, that is, the written word, always gives us examples of the spoken word which are ALWAYS found in scripture, as opposed to Catholic “Tradition” or “spoken word” which is rarely found in scripture.

i assume you are more qualified than the catholic church in enterpreting Scriptures?
How old are you?

All I am is a witness, I can only say what I am reading in my Bible. What you do with that is up to you; and yes, it is possible for people to know “more than the Catholic Church” for the simple reason that God does not just speak to them.

 

[wisdomseeker]

All I am is a witness, I can only say what I am reading in my Bible. What you do with that is up to you; and yes, it is possible for people to know “more than the Catholic Church” for the simple reason that God does not just speak to them.

really! where were you or your church when the Scripture were being put together?

 

[Protestant101]

Originally Posted by justasking4
This is what were asking. You claim that the Word of God is more than the Scriptures. This is why we want to see exactly and specifcally what this is. If this is truly the Word of God i want to know who spoke it, under what conditions and why it is considered the Word of God.
does your Bible have this verse? " the Church is the Pillar and Bullwark of Truth." if there is, what does that mean to you?

It certainly does not signify the Catholic Church; but whichever Church we decide this means; it only means that the Church was/is entrusted with the truth; but was not appointed to originate that truth. The catholic Church, when it began after Christ has not been faithful in carrying out this trust EXACTLY AS GOD GAVE IT and this is why they broke away from Protestants of the day to become the Catholic Church. After all; Jesus was a Protestant.