Protestant saying hello

[guanophore]

This kind of reasoning i.e. my church cannot err since we have the Holy Spirit is what i continually encounter with Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. I show them errors in their thinking and they essentially tell me what you just have…
The danger you are in with other catholics with this kind of thinking is that it is impossible for you ever to detect error in your own church since it will be told to you that the HS guides us and it is impossible to be wrong. This is why you cannot accept that you do have false teachers in your church even when you are presented with the facts.

On the contrary, I think it makes it much easier to distinguish error. Since the doctrine has been the same for 2000 years, and it is the same all over the world, it is easy to spot false teachers. The arguement I have with you is that you seem to equate people teaching falsly with the Church, or the Doctrine being wrong. I never claimed that there have been church members who failed to transmit appropriately what the Church believes.

What details brought you “home”?

It was reading historical theology, the history of the creeds, councils, and the reasons behind the Reformation. The early fathers played a large part.

Not so. Peter was rebuked by Paul in Galatians 2:11-14.
Was he acting in unison with the other apostles in 16:21-23?

A pope can be personally mistaken. the gift of infallibility is that a person will not “teach” error. It does not apply to a person’s individual sins. Peter was rebuked by Paul because he was not acting consistently with the infallible teaching that he participated in putting into place. He was acting in such a way that was at odds with the councilar decree. Yes, at the time the decree was made, all the Apostles were in union.

The problem with making a list of Traditions are many.

I am glad we can finally agree on this. Can you now agree to stop asking for one?

For one i haven't seen how your church defines a Sacred Tradition vs a tradition. Secondly, i have been told repeatedly that since i'm a prostentant and a bigot i can't really know these things.

Oh, no! The reason you cannot progress in this area of learning has nothing to do with being Protestant. In fact, for many Protestants, when they discover the wealth of the Traditions it is the major factor in coming home. In fact, if you were willing to learn about them you would have to give up some of your bigotry, so that is a factor. However, that in itself is not prohibitive either. No, the thing that prevents it is faithlessness. It is not possible to apprehend matters of faith without belief. Since you believe they don’t exist, I think it will be next to impossible for you to learn about them.

Let me ask you. Do you call people bigots who disagree with you?

That all depends upon the manner in which they disagree. If they are persistently given facts that refute their false beliefs, but stubbornly cling to the false beliefs, and continue to misrepresent the facts, bear false witness, and make pejorative remarks about the subject in question that will definitely affect how they are perceieved.

But, let me take this opportunity to point out that no one here has called you a “bigot” so far as I know. What has been said is that you are posting bigoted perspectives. I am sure some of them are not even yours, but come from others who developed them before you adopted them.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3447413]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem with making a list of Traditions are many.

guanophore
I am glad we can finally agree on this. Can you now agree to stop asking for one?

Absolutely not. There is to many unknown factors about it and it plays a pivotal role in the roman catholic faith. To give up my quest would be to deny the truth.

 

[cascherman]

protestant101,

See post #448, you may have missed it.

I am interested in hearing the differences in doctrine from the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church. And remember, I’m not talking about the Eastern Orthodox, I have a feeling you might be mistaking Eastern Catholic from Eastern Orthodox.

thanks, look forward to your post.

 

[cascherman]

Absolutely not. There is to many unknown factors about it and it plays a pivotal role in the roman catholic faith. To give up my quest would be to deny the truth.

One does not convert to the Catholic faith once they have ‘checked off’ each and every tradition and doctrine handed down by our Christian ancestors as justifiable and correct. Someone converts to the Catholic Church when they realize that Christ indeed intended a human authority and a visibly authoritative Church. When that person realizes Christ does have the power to keep the gates of hell from prevailing against his Church, regardless of the sinful nature of it’s members, is when they start seeing the amazing sense of Catholicism.

Most of the time this realization comes when you reason that you can’t call every Church together the collective body of Christ when each disagrees in one way or another with each others crucial tenets. Our God does not stand for multiple views, one is right and many are wrong.

Not having a visible authority to turn to spawns disunity. This is what converts people to the Catholic Church (among other things, like the Eucharist).

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Absolutely not. There is to many unknown factors about it and it plays a pivotal role in the roman catholic faith. To give up my quest would be to deny the truth.

cascherman
One does not convert to the Catholic faith once they have ‘checked off’ each and every tradition and doctrine handed down by our Christian ancestors as justifiable and correct. Someone converts to the Catholic Church when they realize that Christ indeed intended a human authority and a visibly authoritative Church. When that person realizes Christ does have the power to keep the gates of hell from prevailing against his Church, regardless of the sinful nature of it’s members, is when they start seeing the amazing sense of Catholicism.

Most of the time this realization comes when you reason that you can’t call every Church together the collective body of Christ when each disagrees in one way or another with each others crucial tenets. Our God does not stand for multiple views, one is right and many are wrong.

Not having a visible authority to turn to spawns disunity. This is what converts people to the Catholic Church (among other things, like the Eucharist).

One of the things that amazes me about this is that there are a many intelligent catholics who are familar with their faith and yet in my expierence in discussing Sacred Traditions they are in ignorance in what these Sacred Traditions are speciifcally. They use it do defend their faith but they can’t tell you what they are.

 

[guanophore]

One of the things that amazes me about this is that there are a many intelligent catholics who are familar with their faith and yet in my expierence in discussing Sacred Traditions they are in ignorance in what these Sacred Traditions are speciifcally. They use it do defend their faith but they can’t tell you what they are.

This is your experience, ja4 because you don’t recognize and accept what is being told to you. When you perceive things with blinders on, it is hard to “see” very much. That is the purpose of wearing blinders! They block the vision, so that it can be narrow. You have accepted some of the Sacred Traditions, most of the Catholic doctrine, and the New Testament. However, other Traditions that came from the same source, some at the same time, by the same councils, you reject. It is puzzling how this can be. It seems that you believe that God can use a fallible source to create infallible decisions for some things, and not for others. However, your refusal to accept the Sacred Traditions does not make them invalid for anyone but yourself. What is very interesting is that you can’t seem to let it go! Rather than just pass it off as a “cult” as you have Mormonism, you are continually agitated about it. Why is that?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Let me ask you. Do you call people bigots who disagree with you?

what we believe about our church we are going to stick with it. if you think that your ways are the correct one than stick with it. what we are doing is to show you that there is more than you know out there. we have the the Fathers of the church to back up our believes. now if you truly believe that breaking up the Body of Christ is what Jesus wish it to be, than you can go on your merry way.

:knight2:

 

[wisdomseeker]

Absolutely not. There is to many unknown factors about it and it plays a pivotal role in the roman catholic faith. To give up my quest would be to deny the truth.

as for us we no longer have to search the truth, the quest stopped when we found the catholic church. we no longer have the desire to search.

:newidea:

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3447618]
Originally Posted by justasking4
One of the things that amazes me about this is that there are a many intelligent catholics who are familar with their faith and yet in my expierence in discussing Sacred Traditions they are in ignorance in what these Sacred Traditions are speciifcally. They use it do defend their faith but they can’t tell you what they are.

guanophore
This is your experience, ja4 because you don’t recognize and accept what is being told to you. When you perceive things with blinders on, it is hard to “see” very much. That is the purpose of wearing blinders! They block the vision, so that it can be narrow.

Here is another more likely possiblity. You are being deceived yourself in that you don’t know what they are. This question would not be hard to answer if indeed such a thing truly existed but you and others continue to avoid it and want me to drop it.

guanophore
You have accepted some of the Sacred Traditions, most of the Catholic doctrine, and the New Testament. However, other Traditions that came from the same source, some at the same time, by the same councils, you reject. It is puzzling how this can be.

Are you saying you accept everything these councils have said?

It seems that you believe that God can use a fallible source to create infallible decisions for some things, and not for others.

The issue here is how do you know when God is in it or not?

However, your refusal to accept the Sacred Traditions does not make them invalid for anyone but yourself.

It seems that you do accept all the Sacred Traditions. Correct? If so, it would follow that you must know specifically what these Sacred Traditions are. Now i was told by another poster that people have guardian angels. This is a Tradition. I look on the New Advent about guardian angels and it says the church has never dogmatically defined these things. What should i make of this?

What is very interesting is that you can’t seem to let it go! Rather than just pass it off as a “cult” as you have Mormonism, you are continually agitated about it. Why is that?

i have already given my answer to this many times. No need to do so again…

 

[justasking4]

what we believe about our church we are going to stick with it. if you think that your ways are the correct one than stick with it. what we are doing is to show you that there is more than you know out there. we have the the Fathers of the church to back up our believes. now if you truly believe that breaking up the Body of Christ is what Jesus wish it to be, than you can go on your merry way.

:knight2:

I’m confused. It seems that most roman catholics get agiated very quickly when someone counters their claims (fullness of the truth etc). In my expierence with some, they can get down right nasty and insulting if you don’t agree with them. For those who are like this its probably best them not to venture out into the real world where you will encounter some serious challenges and they won’t be so nice. I personally have known only one roman catholic that has been able to take the heat… it would have been great to find some here…

 

[guanophore]

Here is another more likely possiblity. You are being deceived yourself in that you don’t know what they are. This question would not be hard to answer if indeed such a thing truly existed but you and others continue to avoid it and want me to drop it.

Wow, it is no wonder that some people on here have said you sound paranoid. So, what you are suggesting is that Catholics all over the World for 2000 years have been deceived into believing something called The Way in the NT does not really exist at all. This is an amazing suggestion. I have heard of mass hallucinations or people sharing delusions, but the scale of such a condition is huge.

Another thing that comes to mind is, what about those Sacred Traditions that you accept? How does one sort out which ones are part of the mass deception, and which ones are from God? You can’t use the Bible as a standard, because that itself was produced from the same supposed “deception”.

Are you saying you accept everything these councils have said?

This infallible doctrines, of course! “He who hears you hears Me”, He said. The promulgations of the councils are Jesus Himself speaking through the Church, just as He speaks through the prophets.

The issue here is how do you know when God is in it or not?

Well, I agree entirely. The Apostles told us to hold fast to the Traditions, and if anyone came along teaching something other, then it was false. This is what the persons of Apostolic faiths have done.

It seems that you do accept all the Sacred Traditions. Correct? If so, it would follow that you must know specifically what these Sacred Traditions are. Now i was told by another poster that people have guardian angels. This is a Tradition. I look on the New Advent about guardian angels and it says the church has never dogmatically defined these things. What should i make of this?

Exactly what you have been told all along, ja4. The Church does not make dogmatic pronouncements on matters where it is not necessary. Councils are convened and dogmatic pronouncements created to combat heresy. For example, the canon was received intact in the fourth century (actually, there are canonical lists before that). However, there was not mass heresy until the 1500’s, so at that time, the Council of Trent dogmatically defined the canon that had always been used. This was done to make it clear what the Church was teaching, so that people would know if they were falling into error.

i have already given my answer to this many times. No need to do so again…

Actually, you have not. YOu give reasons why the issue of Sacred Traditions should be problematic to Catholics. You have never explained why they are problematic to you! Most other bible christians would just shake their heads, and walk away. Somehow, you cannot. Something (or Someone!) keeps drawing you back to this topic.

 

[cascherman]

Actually, you have not. YOu give reasons why the issue of Sacred Traditions should be problematic to Catholics. You have never explained why they are problematic to you! Most other bible christians would just shake their heads, and walk away. Somehow, you cannot. Something (or Someone!) keeps drawing you back to this topic.

The in-bold above is something I would like to hear.

 

[steve_b]

This kind of reasoning i.e. my church cannot err since we have the Holy Spirit is what i continually encounter with Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.

Totally inappropriate comparison.

asking:

The danger you are in with other catholics with this kind of thinking is that it is impossible for you ever to detect error in your own church since it will be told to you that the HS guides us and it is impossible to be wrong. This is why you cannot accept that you do have false teachers in your church even when you are presented with the facts.

The Church has never taught a doctrine on faith and morals that was later found to be heretical. That’s fact.

asking:

Not so. Peter was rebuked by Paul in Galatians 2:11-14.
Was he acting in unison with the other apostles in 16:21-23?

May I suggest reading the following, where Jerome and Augustine discuss this matter.
newadvent.org/fathers/1102075.htm

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3447710]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Here is another more likely possiblity. You are being deceived yourself in that you don’t know what they are. This question would not be hard to answer if indeed such a thing truly existed but you and others continue to avoid it and want me to drop it.

guanophore
Wow, it is no wonder that some people on here have said you sound paranoid.

I can understand why some may think this. When false teachings are presented as the truth and lead people astray that is something to be deeply deeply concerned about. You and others would probably think the samething about the prophets and apostles who were also intolerant of false teachings. What i see with so many catholics is attitude of apathy towards the truth. So many are luke warm. Same could also be said about many protestants.

So, what you are suggesting is that Catholics all over the World for 2000 years have been deceived into believing something called The Way in the NT does not really exist at all.

If you and other knowledgeable (only with respect to church doctrine and not scripture) roman catholics claim to believe in Sacred Tradition and cannot even show clearly what it is, one is well justified in believing that something seriously wrong. However this is not the most serious error you face.

This is an amazing suggestion. I have heard of mass hallucinations or people sharing delusions, but the scale of such a condition is huge.

I would not call it an hallucination as much as a willingness to be decieved. You and others are incapable of holding your leaders accountable to the truth but will accept what they say under the guise of the Holy Spirit. You and other catholics are not like the
Bereans of Acts 17:11.

Another thing that comes to mind is, what about those Sacred Traditions that you accept? How does one sort out which ones are part of the mass deception, and which ones are from God? You can’t use the Bible as a standard, because that itself was produced from the same supposed “deception”.

The deception in your church is not total. It does have some truth. Its the errors that many catholics are unwilling to face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Are you saying you accept everything these councils have said?

guanophore
This infallible doctrines, of course! “He who hears you hears Me”, He said. The promulgations of the councils are Jesus Himself speaking through the Church, just as He speaks through the prophets.

So it is claimed. You have no way to demonstrate whether this is true or not but you must accept this on faith even though the Scriptures have warned that false teachers would come into the church itself and decieve many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The issue here is how do you know when God is in it or not?

guanophore
Well, I agree entirely. The Apostles told us to hold fast to the Traditions,

What “apostles” said this? The only place i’m aware of is Paul’s statement in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and I Corinthians 11:2 . These are traditions that Paul refers to his own and not the other apostles. Even here we don’t know with certainty what they were. All we have are his writings and his writings don’t reflect in many respects roman catholic doctrines and practices.

and if anyone came along teaching something other, then it was false. This is what the persons of Apostolic faiths have done.

Then why does not your church rebuke the teachers on the marian doctrines and practices? No apostle ever taught this. Same goes for the celibacy rule that stops married men from being bishops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
It seems that you do accept all the Sacred Traditions. Correct? If so, it would follow that you must know specifically what these Sacred Traditions are. Now i was told by another poster that people have guardian angels. This is a Tradition. I look on the New Advent about guardian angels and it says the church has never dogmatically defined these things. What should i make of this?

guanophore
Exactly what you have been told all along, ja4. The Church does not make dogmatic pronouncements on matters where it is not necessary.

What does this mean? Are you saying its ok if a person he believes he wears a scapular that he won’t spend much time in purgatory?
Is it right for a catholic to pray to angels even though it has never dogmatically asserted that its alright to do so?

Councils are convened and dogmatic pronouncements created to combat heresy. For example, the canon was received intact in the fourth century (actually, there are canonical lists before that). However, there was not mass heresy until the 1500’s, so at that time, the Council of Trent dogmatically defined the canon that had always been used.

What did the “elevating” of the deutrocanonical books have to do with the reformation?

This was done to make it clear what the Church was teaching, so that people would know if they were falling into error.

Huh? This issue had not much at all to do with the reformation.

 

[justasking4]

as for us we no longer have to search the truth, the quest stopped when we found the catholic church. we no longer have the desire to search.

:newidea:

Does this mean you will accept anything your church says to you?

 

[ILUVGSUS2]

I am a convert also. I didn’t convert from 7th Day Adventists, but from Southern Baptist. I did this when I was living at home with my parents. My mother would ask me where I was going to church and at first, I didn’t tell the truth. After a couple of times, I felt my dishonesty was not fair to the church or to Christ since I was sure converting was where He was leading me. She was upset at first, but later came to terms with it. My life was totally turned around when I converted. I was trying to get a job and kept trying a local catholic organization, I took another job in my desparation to change jobs and my mother’s advice was “if you want to work there (the catholic organization) then don’t give up.” That advice let me know she was ok with who I am becoming through Him and the catholic church.

I have been employed at the catholic organization 9 1/2 years now. And I have NEVER regretted my decision to convert.

 

[Lampo]

The problem with making a list of Traditions are many.

Congratulations on finally realizing this!! Mikeyb, a few posts up, points out

one such problem would be such a list would give the incorrect appearance that the list was complete.

I think it is a small t tradition that each one of us has a guardian angel. Similar to the tradition that the woman’s name that wiped Jesus’ faith while he was carrying the Cross is Veronica.

 

[justasking4]

steve b;3447819]
Originally Posted by justasking4

This kind of reasoning i.e. my church cannot err since we have the Holy Spirit is what i continually encounter with Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.

steve b
Totally inappropriate comparison.

Not so. They tell essentially the same kind of thing here when it comes to specifics and challenges. Have you ever dialogued with a Mormon or Jehovah Witness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asking

The danger you are in with other catholics with this kind of thinking is that it is impossible for you ever to detect error in your own church since it will be told to you that the HS guides us and it is impossible to be wrong. This is why you cannot accept that you do have false teachers in your church even when you are presented with the facts.

steve b
The Church has never taught a doctrine on faith and morals that was later found to be heretical. That’s fact.

How do you know this? What is your criteria that you use to determine this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asking

Not so. Peter was rebuked by Paul in Galatians 2:11-14.
Was he acting in unison with the other apostles in 16:21-23?

steve b
May I suggest reading the following, where Jerome and Augustine discuss this matter.
newadvent.org/fathers/1102075.htm

Since this is a discussion, it would help if you gave in few sentences what you think these 2 men said.

 

[justasking4]

I am a convert also. I didn’t convert from 7th Day Adventists, but from Southern Baptist. I did this when I was living at home with my parents. My mother would ask me where I was going to church and at first, I didn’t tell the truth. After a couple of times, I felt my dishonesty was not fair to the church or to Christ since I was sure converting was where He was leading me. She was upset at first, but later came to terms with it. My life was totally turned around when I converted. I was trying to get a job and kept trying a local catholic organization, I took another job in my desparation to change jobs and my mother’s advice was “if you want to work there (the catholic organization) then don’t give up.” That advice let me know she was ok with who I am becoming through Him and the catholic church.

I have been employed at the catholic organization 9 1/2 years now. And I have NEVER regretted my decision to convert.

What were some of the factors that led to you coming to the catholic church?

Also, how well did you know the scriptures and doctrines of the Baptists?

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;3447975]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem with making a list of Traditions are many.

Lampo
Congratulations on finally realizing this!! Mikeyb, a few posts up, points out

This problem is yours not mine. If you don’t know what a specific Tradition is then its really not of any use.

I think it is a small t tradition that each one of us has a guardian angel. Similar to the tradition that the woman’s name that wiped Jesus’ faith while he was carrying the Cross is Veronica.

Are these “traditions” true though? If so, how do you know?