Protestant saying hello

[Deconi]

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Another example where the roman catholic church has failed (don’t know about yours) was teaching that Musliums worship the same God as Christians do. This is such a clear false teaching in the catechism:
• 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

Catholics have been told by their church that it can never be wrong in matters of faith and morals and when given example after example from scripture and history and doctrines that indeed it has i expect to get strong resistence and insults…

The mind of God is not for you to decide, pilgrim. Some of us, Catholics, like you, also question this position. But it is The Church who HOLDS and Professes it!

When we exmaine it, IT IS TRUE! God made man; ALL man. ALL humanity. Therefore, He Wills that ALL humans be saved!

How we differentiate about our understanding of Him is ours, not His, nor The Church!

Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham. Abraham belived in God, the same God WE do! Therefore, any Muslim who believes in the same God as Abraham did, believes with us, in The One True Maker of ALL THINGS.

In spite of our reservations, The Church, again, is proven correct. How you interpret that snippet of the ‘Cat’ is yours alone.

Whilst we have reservations about some of the tennets of Islamic practice, the “faith of Abraham” is something we share. If you think God does not wish the Muslim saved, nor the Bhuddist, nor the Hinduist, then sadly again, your belief system is incomplete and partial.

The problem in the Mohammedian system is that Christ is not God, but a prophet. Like your system, it is incomplete and partial in different aspects. What The Church professes is that Jesus Christ, is THE SAME GOD that Abraham believed in. The question for Islam, as well as Judaism, is the realisation of this Truth. Jesus Christ and Abraham’s God, is One and The Same!

Unlike your ‘Christian’ view, it is not my god is better than yours!! Christ came for all as God wishes for all. Not just for Christians. Those who find or arrive at that realization, become Catholic in their Christianity, for that is what The Catholic Church professes.

Those who search Scriptures only, will inevitably find some snippet that they interpret to the contrary and believe it, without having a church to take their misunderstanding to, as mandated in that same Scriptures. They then ‘point the finger’ and say,“See? See the warnings in Scriptures about what you have done?”…without realizing the Scriptures may have been referring to themselves!!

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Another example where the roman catholic church has failed (don’t know about yours) was teaching that Musliums worship the same God as Christians do. This is such a clear false teaching in the catechism:
• 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

Catholics have been told by their church that it can never be wrong in matters of faith and morals and when given example after example from scripture and history and doctrines that indeed it has i expect to get strong resistence and insults…

Deconi
The mind of God is not for you to decide, pilgrim. Some of us, Catholics, like you, also question this position. But it is The Church who HOLDS and Professes it!

When we exmaine it, IT IS TRUE! God made man; ALL man. ALL humanity. Therefore, He Wills that ALL humans be saved!

How we differentiate about our understanding of Him is ours, not His, nor The Church!

Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham. Abraham belived in God, the same God WE do! Therefore, any Muslim who believes in the same God as Abraham did, believes with us, in The One True Maker of ALL THINGS.

In spite of our reservations, The Church, again, is proven correct. How you interpret that snippet of the ‘Cat’ is yours alone.

Whilst we have reservations about some of the tennets of Islamic practice, the “faith of Abraham” is something we share. If you think God does not wish the Muslim saved, nor the Bhuddist, nor the Hinduist, then sadly again, your belief system is incomplete and partial.

The problem in the Mohammedian system is that Christ is not God, but a prophet. Like your system, it is incomplete and partial in different aspects. What The Church professes is that Jesus Christ, is THE SAME GOD that Abraham believed in. The question for Islam, as well as Judaism, is the realisation of this Truth. Jesus Christ and Abraham’s God, is One and The Same!

Unlike your ‘Christian’ view, it is not my god is better than yours!! Christ came for all as God wishes for all. Not just for Christians. Those who find or arrive at that realization, become Catholic in their Christianity, for that is what The Catholic Church professes.

Those who search Scriptures only, will inevitably find some snippet that they interpret to the contrary and believe it, without having a church to take their misunderstanding to, as mandated in that same Scriptures. They then ‘point the finger’ and say,“See? See the warnings in Scriptures about what you have done?”…without realizing the Scriptures may have been referring to themselves!!

There just is no getting around that your church has contradicted the Scriptures when it claims Musliums and Christians worship the same God. The God of Christianity is Trinity and Islam denies this. This is a fundamental difference that cannot be wished away. Were not even talking about the same God. It denies that Christ was God and died for our sins. To deny that Christ died for sin is to condemn yourself.
Allah is not the god of Abraham.

 

[Cathy]

Many Muslims do worship the true God, the God Who is Love. It’s just that they don’t know much about Him (neither do we, of course, but we do know that He is a Trinity of persons, because we believe what He told us about Himself).

Sadly, many Muslims and Jews do not have as full an understanding of God as Christians do. For many, that is not their fault, because of their circumstances. I have a Muslim neighbor who prays the Lord’s Prayer with me. She and her Muslim mother in Iran pray to Jesus. I am told the Koran says Jesus was born of a Virgin. Some say that it is through the common love of Jesus’ mother that Muslims and Christians will reconcile. If Muslims believe Jesus is born of a virgin, it can’t be too far of a stretch to convince them He’s more than a mere prophet.

I think the main thing if you meet a Muslim person is not to assume you know what he believes about God. After all, they don’t have the Magisterium to guide them, as we Catholics do, and even Catholics go astray from the teachings of the Magisterium.

 

[Lampo]

because you are right about that.

According to whom?

 

[pismopal]

What can i say? Instead of assuming the best in people its easier to assume the worst so you can make the kinds comments you do towards me…
i just thank God we don’t live next door to each other-- i’d be toast by now…

So far as i can tell you are the only one i have seen you use this term against me. Actually this might not be to bad. i suspect others hate me more than you do----

Have things changed for the better?

We are having a discussion and we have different opinions about things. We should be able to discuss things without this kind of rethoric.

Huh??? The pope comes out in 1950 to proclaim the assumption of Mary which was not only totally unknown to the apostles but for centuries and you say i’m perpetrating “new doctrines”? :crying:

The Pope may have proclaimed the Assumption of Mary in 1950 (assuming that you are correct) but this does not mean that it is a “new” fact. The Law of Thermodynamics took millions of years before it was defined but that does not mean it was a new force. Newton defined gravity a little after the fact too but he didn’t invent gravity.

 

[guanophore]

What can i say? Instead of assuming the best in people its easier to assume the worst so you can make the kinds comments you do towards me…
i just thank God we don’t live next door to each other-- i’d be toast by now…

It is not an assumption, ja4, but a conclusion based upon the evidence. Although your attitude has improved somewhat over the course of the last year, your posts have a persistent tone of calumny and false witness (not to mention prejudice) against Catholicism. I will not assume the worst, and I believe that God has led you hear to learn about your own family history. I pray for you every day, and all those who tear and bite at the Bride of Christ.

I do not seek vengence upon my neighbors who throw stones into my yard. I use the stones to make things.

So far as i can tell you are the only one i have seen you use this term against me. Actually this might not be  to bad. i suspect others hate me more than you do----:D

I have never used this term for you, since I am not at all sure that you are not role playing, or representing beliefs that were given to you by others. I do not hate you, either. I am hurt by your constant calumny, and I feel sad that you are so separated from the richness that has been left for us by the Apostles. It is not my place to know your heart. All I know is that your posts represent a deep distrust of authority, hostility toward Catholicism, and hard heartedness. Only God knows the true state of your heart. Perhaps you are pretending to be this way? This is easy in a forum where no one can know who you really are.

Have things changed for the better?

In my opinion, the persecuted church is a more pure church. To the extent that you persecute us for our belief, we are purified. We can join our sufferings with those of Jesus, and His mother. Each time you lash out at Catholics, you wound Our Lord and His Blessed Mother. Jesus has already paid the price for your lashings. Now that you are here on CAF, we all have an opportunity to join our sufferings with His, and thus fulfill the Law of Christ.

We are having a discussion and we have different opinions about things. We should be able to discuss things without this kind of rethoric.

Oh, that is not rhetoric. Persons who are called to celibacy cannot maintain intimate relations with others. If they try to enter a married or other intimate state, it causes chaos in their lives. This is because our hearts are restless until they rest in Christ. It has nothing to do with ones sexual state, either. Any person who will “kick against the goads” will be miserable so long as they rebel against the will of God for themselves. Since your posts indicate that you believe deeply in the value of marriage and the role of a supportive wife to the believer, I can presume that you are not one who is called to the celibate life. However, I am mystified why you would discourage others who want to become eunuchs for the Kingdom.

Huh??? The pope comes out in 1950 to proclaim the assumption of Mary which was not only totally unknown to the apostles but for centuries and you say i’m perpetrating “new doctrines”? :crying:

You think this was unknown because you believe that the NT is “all we have from the Apostles”. This is not the case. We can see that this doctrine has been believed from the early times because it appears in our Liturgies, prayers, and other elements of worship and faith practice. The Pope is not allowed to declare things that have not come from the Apostles.

So where are we at?  I'm generalizing when i use the terms catholic and roman catholic or rome. If you want me to be more specific in your case i probably won't be able to do since there are probably disctinction that i don't know. I don't intend to offend you but i suppose that won't help much when it happens.

I want you to realize that you are blaming things on “Rome” that existed before the Roman Rite developed. These doctrines were part of the earliest Apostolic Churches, and it is discounting to invalidate that these beliefs have been held and taught by everyone who receives the Teachings of the Apostles.

Let me answer in this way. Are you familar with the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24-30? I think the principle i.e. letting the tares and wheat grow together for a time that Jesus speaks of here is applicable to the church also.

If you believe this, why do you feel so personally compelled to “uproot” Catholic beliefs? Why are you unable to tolerate what you consider “weeds” in God’s field?

Peter did fail. he was rebuked by Paul in Galatians 2:11-21.

His FAITH did not fail. He never wavered from his profession of faith that Jesus was the messiah. He had personal shortcomings, but that is not the same as leading the sheep astray that Jesus gave into His care.

Secondly, evidently Jesus did allow the church to fall into error during the reign of evil popes and the inquistions. Either He allowed it or was incapable of stopping it.  Which do you think is correct?

I believe that the Teaching of the Church never changed during this time, and despite fallible men behaving badly according to their call, God preserved the purity of His bride in the essence of the Teachings He left. He provided saints and doctors to purifiy and heal the wrongs, so that the Bride could be preserved. Any human institution would have collapsed.

 

[guanophore]

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Another example where the roman catholic church has failed (don’t know about yours)

We are all Catholic, ja4. This is the point I am trying to make. Al the Rites who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome are Catholic. Only one of the many is Roman.

was teaching that Musliums worship the same God as Christians do. This is such a clear false teaching in the catechism:
• 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

How do you see that this is an error? Did you not know that the Muslims are the sons of Esau? do you not remember that God promised to make of him a great nation also? They worship the God of Abraham.

Catholics have been told by their church that it can never be wrong in matters of faith and morals and when given example after example from scripture and history and doctrines that indeed it has i expect to get strong resistence and insults....

We receive the promises of Christ, that He will be with us till the end of the Age, and that His Spirit will guide into all Truth. If we do not receive these, then we must believe Jesus is a liar, or a weakling, and cannot watch over His word to perform it.

There just is no getting around that your church has contradicted the Scriptures when it claims Musliums and Christians worship the same God. The God of Christianity is Trinity and Islam denies this. This is a fundamental difference that cannot be wished away. Were not even talking about the same God. It denies that Christ was God and died for our sins. To deny that Christ died for sin is to condemn yourself. Allah is not the god of Abraham.

Well, it seems that you have a lot to learn about the God of Abraham. Think what you are saying! God did not reveal Himself to be a Trinity until the time of Jesus! The Jews did not have any sense of this at all. That is why they wanted to stone Jesus for making Himself equal with God. To this day they have never accepted the Trinity, yet, salvation is from the Jews. The Muslims also are descended from Abraham, and believe in the God of Abraham. They are monothesists, just like the Jews. I agree that their understanding is limited because they reject the Son of God, but if you say that they don’t worship the God of Abraham, then you have to throw out the sons of Isaac with them.

 

[Good_Fella]

If i’m not mistaken the first mention of her assumption was 377.
Where is it written that St Thomas witnessed it?

A.D. 377 is shortly before the time of the canon of Holy Scripture.

Do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years one day. {2 Peter 3, 8}

But if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and he will be given it. {James 1, 5}

So, then, what is 377 years to the Lord and his Church?

St. John Damascene (d. 749) related an account concerning the Assumption of Mary: “St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of the apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the apostles concluded that the body was taken up heaven.” Bishop Juvenal drew upon a long standing oral tradition that originated in Palestine during apostolic time. Mary’s tomb remains empty to this day.

Tell it ( the word of the Lord ) to your children, and your children to their children, and their children to the next generation. {Joel 1, 3}

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. {John 20, 30}

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Lampo]

Huh??? The pope comes out in 1950 to proclaim the assumption of Mary which was not only totally unknown to the apostles but for centuries and you say i’m perpetrating “new doctrines”? :crying:

Before Adam named them, did animals exist?

 

[mikey_b]

Just thought I could add my 2 cents worth about Marion Doctrines. I too had a problem with them at first until I realized that things like the Rosary brought me closer to the story of Jesus. I was influenced at that time by everything around me. It is good to be reminded of the happenings in the Bible which that prayer brings out. I’m not required to say it but I think it’s good to. It was good to know Catholics didn’t worshhip Mary. Saying the Hail Mary that many times kind of gave me the wrong impression until I learned to focus on the story line of each mystery.
What I think sealed it for me was when I read:
Revelation 12:13-17 …13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child…17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
So you see: If Mary is not your spiritual mother that you have a problem.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3452535]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Another example where the roman catholic church has failed (don’t know about yours)

guanophore
We are all Catholic, ja4. This is the point I am trying to make. Al the Rites who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome are Catholic. Only one of the many is Roman.

If all the rites that are in communion with the pope are catholic then what are the differences that you think are significant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
was teaching that Musliums worship the same God as Christians do. This is such a clear false teaching in the catechism:
• 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

guanophore
How do you see that this is an error? Did you not know that the Muslims are the sons of Esau? do you not remember that God promised to make of him a great nation also? They worship the God of Abraham.

This issue is not about who they are but their understanding of God that is the problem. They deny a fundamental aspect of God that tells us that the god they refer to is in reality not the God of Abraham. They may claim it, but when you get into the details of their doctrine of God its not the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Catholics have been told by their church that it can never be wrong in matters of faith and morals and when given example after example from scripture and history and doctrines that indeed it has i expect to get strong resistence and insults…

guanophore
We receive the promises of Christ, that He will be with us till the end of the Age, and that His Spirit will guide into all Truth. If we do not receive these, then we must believe Jesus is a liar, or a weakling, and cannot watch over His word to perform it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
There just is no getting around that your church has contradicted the Scriptures when it claims Musliums and Christians worship the same God. The God of Christianity is Trinity and Islam denies this. This is a fundamental difference that cannot be wished away. Were not even talking about the same God. It denies that Christ was God and died for our sins. To deny that Christ died for sin is to condemn yourself. Allah is not the god of Abraham.

guanophore
Well, it seems that you have a lot to learn about the God of Abraham. Think what you are saying! God did not reveal Himself to be a Trinity until the time of Jesus! The Jews did not have any sense of this at all. That is why they wanted to stone Jesus for making Himself equal with God. To this day they have never accepted the Trinity, yet, salvation is from the Jews. The Muslims also are descended from Abraham, and believe in the God of Abraham. They are monothesists, just like the Jews. I agree that their understanding is limited because they reject the Son of God, but if you say that they don’t worship the God of Abraham, then you have to throw out the sons of Isaac with them.

Mankind is not longer in the age of ignorance. The leaders of the Jews and Musiliums do know what Christians teach about the nature of God and they still reject it. Its at the “offical” level where this rejection is seen.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Our Church is called One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church and not Rome church. Rome is the city.

correct if i am wrong. was is it St Ignatius or somebody else who said:? " the Church will rule from one city and will reign into all nations."

 

[wisdomseeker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by justasking4
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Another example where the roman catholic church has failed (don’t know about yours)

JA4 have you ever read the four marks of the church at newman apologetic resource? i think that this might help you to understand who we are. dont be afraid to read it. it is scary in the begining but you will understand why we do what we do. there are a lot of Biblical passages.

 

[guanophore]

There just is no getting around that your church has contradicted the Scriptures when it claims Musliums and Christians worship the same God. The God of Christianity is Trinity and Islam denies this. This is a fundamental difference that cannot be wished away. Were not even talking about the same God. It denies that Christ was God and died for our sins. To deny that Christ died for sin is to condemn yourself.
Allah is not the god of Abraham.

By whatever name you call Him, He is the One God, the God of Abraham. God made this promise to the father of the Muslims:

Gen 17:19-21
20 As for Ish’mael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

The Muslims are the Descendants of Ishmael. They worship the God of Abraham.

This issue is not about who they are but their understanding of God that is the problem.

I think you will find that basic understanding one has of God is based in large measure of who they are.

They deny a fundamental aspect of God that tells us that the god they refer to is in reality not the God of Abraham.

Perhaps this belongs on a new thread? They have the understanding of God that Abraham gave to Ishmael before he was put out of the camp. Of course the revelation is limited!

They may claim it, but when you get into the details of their doctrine of God its not the same.

It is not right to look back through the history of all the revelation that has occurred since Ishmael left, and expect to understand what they believe based on what we believe. They believe what they received, and it is limited. Kinda like you!

Mankind is not longer in the age of ignorance. The leaders of the Jews and Musiliums do know what Christians teach about the nature of God and they still reject it. Its at the “offical” level where this rejection is seen.

I have no arguement with that. But to say they did not originate in the same place (Abraham and his God) is not right. In fact, there is a great deal of ignorance.

 

[Deconi]

…besides, worry less about the speck in your Muslim brother’s eye, but rather, consider the beam across your own!

Your “Justasking” tag is dishonest. You are more interested in accusations than enquiry.

Empty yourself and either Come Home, or at least take the load off your feet and head and rest awhile in the ‘shade’ of the Ol’ Church!

 

[Protestant101]

I call 'em as I see 'em. Like I said, I realize this thinking and belief system has been handed down, and it is easy to fall into thinking wrong things. However, in this case, it is so ingrained, that even repeated corrections have failed to subtitute truth for falsehood. We all have prejudices, and we can get over them best by first admitting that we have them. In this case, the person in question appears to wish to cling to the prejudice that was developed on the basis of erroneous information. Refusing to substitute error with fact is part of reinforcing bigotry.

We have just had St. Patrick’s day, and I am mindful of the bigotry the Irish had to deal with when they immigrated to this country, just because they were Catholic. Should such things be reinforced, or corrected? How can something be corrected if it is not recognized as a problem?

You are cluthing at straws here; you have no basis by which to call someone online that you never met “bigoted.” How do you know, unless you can read minds?

 

[Protestant101]

…besides, worry less about the speck in your Muslim brother’s eye, but rather, consider the beam across your own!

Your “Justasking” tag is dishonest. You are more interested in accusations than enquiry.

Empty yourself and either Come Home, or at least take the load off your feet and head and rest awhile in the ‘shade’ of the Ol’ Church!

I have noticed that when the Catholics here have trouble coming up with Bible reasoning for a response; they are responding with personal accusations and characterizations like this. I will have to borrow your book so that I can learn how to read minds too! That would be a great “skill” to have.

 

[Protestant101]

Before Adam named them, did animals exist?

Before the Pope named her; Mary existed in the Bible’s great prophecies, as the virgin who would give birth to the Messiah.

However, as fond as Catholics are becoming of naming “the woman” in Revelation 12 as “Mary;” it would be very poor exegesis to do so; for when we consider other Bible texts related to this passage; it is plain to see that this text has nothing to do with “Mary.” I think I will start a topic on rev.12 later tonight when I have time. This would be worth exploring further.

 

[Protestant101]

A.D. 377 is shortly before the time of the canon of Holy Scripture.

Do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years one day. {2 Peter 3, 8}

But if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and he will be given it. {James 1, 5}

So, then, what is 377 years to the Lord and his Church?

St. John Damascene (d. 749) related an account concerning the Assumption of Mary: “St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of the apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the apostles concluded that the body was taken up heaven.” Bishop Juvenal drew upon a long standing oral tradition that originated in Palestine during apostolic time. Mary’s tomb remains empty to this day.

Tell it ( the word of the Lord ) to your children, and your children to their children, and their children to the next generation. {Joel 1, 3}

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. {John 20, 30}

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

There is NO proof of where Mary’s tomb actually is, it is all guesses and wishful thinking. An empty tomb proves nothing, unless evidence can be seen of what happened to the body. It’s not “the word of the Lord” to tell lies and rumors to your children

 

[Protestant101]

We are all Catholic, ja4. This is the point I am trying to make. Al the Rites who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome are Catholic. Only one of the many is Roman.

How do you see that this is an error? Did you not know that the Muslims are the sons of Esau? do you not remember that God promised to make of him a great nation also? They worship the God of Abraham.

We receive the promises of Christ, that He will be with us till the end of the Age, and that His Spirit will guide into all Truth. If we do not receive these, then we must believe Jesus is a liar, or a weakling, and cannot watch over His word to perform it.

Well, it seems that you have a lot to learn about the God of Abraham. Think what you are saying! God did not reveal Himself to be a Trinity until the time of Jesus! The Jews did not have any sense of this at all. That is why they wanted to stone Jesus for making Himself equal with God. To this day they have never accepted the Trinity, yet, salvation is from the Jews. The Muslims also are descended from Abraham, and believe in the God of Abraham. They are monothesists, just like the Jews. I agree that their understanding is limited because they reject the Son of God, but if you say that they don’t worship the God of Abraham, then you have to throw out the sons of Isaac with them.

Ahem…God revealed Himself to be a Trinity back in Genesis!