Protestant saying hello

[justasking4]

Thanks be to God We all welcome him home to the Church.

Where do the Scriptures speak of the church as being “home”?

 

[jmcrae]

Where do the Scriptures speak of the church as being “home”?

The Church is God’s household, and through the Initiation Sacraments, this person has been adopted into God’s family (the Church) as His child; this is what is meant by the term “coming home.”

 

[Cathy]

Where do the Scriptures speak of the church as being “home”?

Christ is Risen! Alleluia!
I had never been Catholic when I joined the Church, at age 45, but I felt a strong sense of coming home, as many other converts have described.
Cathy

 

[Lampo]

Before the Pope named her; Mary existed in the Bible’s great prophecies, as the virgin who would give birth to the Messiah.

However, as fond as Catholics are becoming of naming “the woman” in Revelation 12 as “Mary;” it would be very poor exegesis to do so;

According to whom?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by Protestant101
Before the Pope named her; Mary existed in the Bible’s great prophecies, as the virgin who would give birth to the Messiah.

However, as fond as Catholics are becoming of naming “the woman” in Revelation 12 as “Mary;” it would be very poor exegesis to do so;

According to whom?

Acoording to a couple of your own scholars. Here is what a prominent scholar in the catholic church says about this passage:
Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):
Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.
In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.

There is no doubt that these scholarly experts don’t agree with catholics who promote the idea that the woman in Revelations 12 is Mary…

 

[jmcrae]

Acoording to a couple of your own scholars. Here is what a prominent scholar in the catholic church says about this passage:
Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):
Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.
In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.

There is no doubt that these scholarly experts don’t agree with catholics who promote the idea that the woman in Revelations 12 is Mary…

These particular scholars that you’re quoting are very liberal - they don’t represent mainstream Catholic thinking.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Where do the Scriptures speak of the church as being “home”?

And were in Holy Scripture does it is say try and make an argument out of every statement made. You sir do not wish an exchange of ideas or conversation You from everything I have read that you have posted on this thread just want to argue. You out right dismiss or complete ignore any statements that do not agree with your preconceived notions. further exchange with you therefore would not be enlightening on any level and could conceivably harmful. With that I discourage all from continue feeding of your argumentative needs.

 

[justasking4]

These particular scholars that you’re quoting are very liberal - they don’t represent mainstream Catholic thinking.

Even if they are liberals doesn’t mean that in this particular case they have not made a strong case against the idea that the woman of Revelations 12 is Mary. Its hard to argue with them here.

Is the Jerome Biblical Commentary a liberal commentary?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Where do the Scriptures speak of the church as being “home”?

oneGODoneCHURCH;
And were in Holy Scripture does it is say try and make an argument out of every statement made. You sir do not wish an exchange of ideas or conversation You from everything I have read that you have posted on this thread just want to argue. You out right dismiss or complete ignore any statements that do not agree with your preconceived notions. further exchange with you therefore would not be enlightening on any level and could conceivably harmful. With that I discourage all from continue feeding of your argumentative needs.

It seems we agree then the scriptures don’t speak of the church as home. This would also mean that the NT Christians didn’t think of it that way. Correct?

Secondly, when i see this kind talk about an ex-protestant converting to the catholic church is very troubling. The idea that converting to the catholic church as a “coming home” is foreign to the scriptures for it never speaks of any church like this.

Actually we should think of ourselves as “citizens of heaven”. This is clear in Philippians 3:20 where the great apostle writes this:
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

 

[jmcrae]

Even if they are liberals doesn’t mean that in this particular case they have not made a strong case against the idea that the woman of Revelations 12 is Mary. Its hard to argue with them here.

Is the Jerome Biblical Commentary a liberal commentary?

The New Jerome Bible Commentary (which is the one that Raymond Brown is involved with) is considered extremely liberal, yes.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

It seems we agree then the scriptures don’t speak of the church as home. This would also mean that the NT Christians didn’t think of it that way. Correct?

Secondly, when i see this kind talk about an ex-protestant converting to the catholic church is very troubling. The idea that converting to the catholic church as a “coming home” is foreign to the scriptures for it never speaks of any church like this.

Actually we should think of ourselves as “citizens of heaven”. This is clear in Philippians 3:20 where the great apostle writes this:
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

I refuse to argue with you. As I said I encourage all others not to continue to feed your arguments any longer. And pray that all Christians Come home to Christ One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Together with the ever Virgin Mother of God and all the Saints and Angels pray before the Throne of God and Our Lord Jesus that one day all may come Home and again be united In Faith for the Glory of God. In the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[justasking4]

The New Jerome Bible Commentary (which is the one that Raymond Brown is involved with) is considered extremely liberal, yes.

Have you looked up Revelations 12 in a conservative commentary and seen what they say? If so, what did they say?

 

[mikey_b]

Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17).

MB: I’m fairly new at putting it all together, but even to me I realize that there can be multiple meanings to names or verses in the Bible. [such as Temple etc.]
Is what I see here an attempt to add meaning by you to the verses in the Bible? It looks like they are clearly added to promote your resistance to the Church.
Let me clarify: When you say, "For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth [v. 2]
Why did you add the words “worst of”? My Bible [NAB] states “wailed aloud in pain”. There was always pain in childbirth as we can see if we look back to Genesis3:16 where God says He will “intensify” the pangs of your childbearing. Clearly you have intensified Rev 2 to serve your purpose.

Then you state your objection to Mary being pursued into the desert. Have you read MT 2: 13-15? There is a lot of desert in Egypt.

Finally you state that v 17 reads that she was persecuted “through her other children”.

If the Bible actually said that and you assume that Mary means only the Church, then wouldn’t that mean that “you” could be one of the other children persecuting her?

I read in my Bible that the “dragon” went off to wage war with the rest of her offspring not her offspring waging war against her other offspring.

So why do you misrepresent the words of God?

 

[justasking4]

justasking4;3464928:

Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17).

MB: I’m fairly new at putting it all together, but even to me I realize that there can be multiple meanings to names or verses in the Bible. [such as Temple etc.]
Is what I see here an attempt to add meaning by you to the verses in the Bible? It looks like they are clearly added to promote your resistance to the Church.
Let me clarify: When you say, "For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth [v. 2]
Why did you add the words “worst of”? My Bible [NAB] states “wailed aloud in pain”. There was always pain in childbirth as we can see if we look back to Genesis3:16 where God says He will “intensify” the pangs of your childbearing. Clearly you have intensified Rev 2 to serve your purpose.

Then you state your objection to Mary being pursued into the desert. Have you read MT 2: 13-15? There is a lot of desert in Egypt.

Finally you state that v 17 reads that she was persecuted “through her other children”.

If the Bible actually said that and you assume that Mary means only the Church, then wouldn’t that mean that “you” could be one of the other children persecuting her?

I read in my Bible that the “dragon” went off to wage war with the rest of her offspring not her offspring waging war against her other offspring.

So why do you misrepresent the words of God?

What you are responding are not my comments but to the commentary on this passage by Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482).

 

[mikey_b]

mikey b;3466047:

What you are responding are not my comments but to the commentary on this passage by Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482).

MB: Thanks but I guess they don’t carry much weight with me on this. Do you agree with them?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I refuse to argue with you. As I said I encourage all others not to continue to feed your arguments any longer. And pray that all Christians Come home to Christ One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Together with the ever Virgin Mother of God and all the Saints and Angels pray before the Throne of God and Our Lord Jesus that one day all may come Home and again be united In Faith for the Glory of God. In the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Acoording to a couple of your own scholars. Here is what a prominent scholar in the catholic church says about this passage:
Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):
Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.
In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.

There is no doubt that these scholarly experts don’t agree with catholics who promote the idea that the woman in Revelations 12 is Mary…

JA4. stop using silly arguments. it is clear to us that you dont know what you are saying. Rev. speaks of this woman as given birth to a child who would rule. who do you think gave birth to a child who is the Ruler today among us? we knowd your attempt to to reduce the Mother of God to nothing. God have mercy on you. i am sure you look at the mothers of your friends or your wife or whatever with the most respect.

:bowdown: to your superiors.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Where do the Scriptures speak of the church as being “home”?

Oh ye! i forgot is not written in the Bible, therefore you wouldnt know. sorry. i guess if it is not written, therefore do not exist. lets see, you do not appear to be in the Bible, so to me you do not exist.

 

[Lampo]

Acoording to a couple of your own scholars.

Not quite good enough. I’m going to go with the Church Jesus Christ founded since She speaks infallibly in matters of faith and morals and since the Church is the pillar and bullwark of truth.

There is no doubt that these scholarly experts don’t agree with catholics who promote the idea that the woman in Revelations 12 is Mary…

Not only do they not agree with individual Catholics, they don’t agree with the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[Lampo]

Its hard to argue with them here.

It’s really not hard at all to argue with them here since the Church has spoken on the woman in Revelation being Mary.