Protestant saying hello

[wisdomseeker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Acoording to a couple of your own scholars.

we do not follow a couple of scholars, we follow a Church established by Jesus Himself. along the years history tells us many heresies arose out of a couple of people here and there with big ideas and many fell into heresies with them. as for us we will remain with the Grace of God into His church until the end. remember only those who persevers until the end will be saved.

:bowdown2: to your superiors.

 

[justasking4]

Not quite good enough. I’m going to go with the Church Jesus Christ founded since She speaks infallibly in matters of faith and morals and since the Church is the pillar and bullwark of truth.

Not only do they not agree with individual Catholics, they don’t agree with the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church.

Where i can it be found that the catholic church has infallilby interpreted that the woman in Revelations 12 is indeed Mary?

 

[justasking4]

justasking4;3466165:

MB: Thanks but I guess they don’t carry much weight with me on this. Do you agree with them?

Yes. When you look at the details of Revelations 12 they don’t all fit what we know of her.

 

[guanophore]

It seems we agree then the scriptures don’t speak of the church as home. This would also mean that the NT Christians didn’t think of it that way. Correct?

Not correct, ja4. The NT Christians understood the Church to be the Kingdom of God here on earth,and having become citizens of it, they made it their home. They awaited with eager hope the perfection of their faith.

Secondly, when i see this kind talk about an ex-protestant converting to the catholic church is very troubling. The idea that converting to the catholic church as a “coming home” is foreign to the scriptures for it never speaks of any church like this.

I think this might be troubling for you because you are not seeking unity in the Body. You seem to see yourself as on some sort of mission of divisiveness, and take pains to drive wedges between the members of the body, tearing at the body.

The NT writers may not have been able to envision the appalling effects of the Reformation. It their minds, the Church is the Body of Christ, and He only has ONE BODY.

Actually we should think of ourselves as “citizens of heaven”. This is clear in Philippians 3:20 where the great apostle writes this:
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

Indeed! And we have a little dab of that heaven here on earth in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

We have come. We have already arrived. We are members of the assembly of the first born enrolled in heaven.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3468231]
Originally Posted by justasking4
It seems we agree then the scriptures don’t speak of the church as home. This would also mean that the NT Christians didn’t think of it that way. Correct?

guanophore
Not correct, ja4. The NT Christians understood the Church to be the Kingdom of God here on earth,and having become citizens of it, they made it their home. They awaited with eager hope the perfection of their faith.

I can’t think of where the Scriptures say the “Church to be the Kingdom of God here on earth”. Do you have the passage for this?

 

[Lampo]

Where i can it be found that the catholic church has infallilby interpreted that the woman in Revelations 12 is indeed Mary?

I’m glad you asked!

The mutual relationship betweenthe mystery of the Church and Mary appears clearly in the “greatportent” described in the Book of Rev- elation: “A great portentappeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet,and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (12:1). In this sign the Churchrecognizes an image of her own mystery: present in history, she knows that shetranscends history, inasmuch as she constitutes on earth the “seed andbeginning” of the Kingdom of God. 139 TheChurch sees this mystery fulfilled in complete and exemplary fashion in Mary.She is the woman of glory in whom God’s plan could be carried out with supremeperfection.

The “woman clothed with the sun”-the Book ofRevelation tells us-“was with child” (12:2). The Church is fullyaware that she bears within herself the Saviour of the world, Christ the Lord.She is aware that she is called to offer Christ to the world, giving men and womennew birth into God’s own life. But the Church cannot forget that her missionwas made possible by the motherhood of Mary, who conceived and bore the One whois “God from God”, “true God from true God”. Mary is trulythe Mother of God, the Theotokos, in whose motherhood the vocation tomotherhood bestowed by God on every woman is raised to its highest level. ThusMary becomes the model of the Church, called to be the “new Eve”, themother of believers, the mother of the “living” (cf. Gen GN 3,20).

The Church’s spiritual motherhood is only achieved-theChurch knows this too-through the pangs and “the labour” ofchildbirth (cf. Rev AP 12,2), that is to say, in constant tension with the forcesof evil which still roam the world and affect human hearts, offering resistanceto Christ: “In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The lightshines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it” (JN 1,4-5).

Like the Church, Mary too had to live her motherhoodamid suffering: “This child is set … for a sign that is spokenagainst-and a sword will pierce through your own soul also-that thoughts out ofmany hearts may be revealed” (LC 2,34-35). The wordswhich Simeon addresses to Mary at the very beginning of the Saviour’s earthlylife sum up and prefigure the rejection of Jesus, and with him of Mary, arejection which will reach its culmination on Calvary. “Standing by thecross of Jesus” (JN 19,25), Mary shares inthe gift which the Son makes of himself: she offers Jesus, gives him over, andbegets him to the end for our sake. The “yes” spoken on the day ofthe Annunciation reaches full maturity on the day of the Cross, when the timecomes for Mary to receive and beget as her children all those who becomedisciples, pouring out upon them the saving love of her Son: "When Jesussaw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to hismother, ?Woman, behold, your son!’ " (Evangelium vitae 103)

 

[guanophore]

I can’t think of where the Scriptures say the “Church to be the Kingdom of God here on earth”. Do you have the passage for this?

Have you never done a study on the Kingdom of Heaven in the Scripture? I guess that gives you something to look forward to!
Maybe a better use of your time than trying to pull Catholics away from their faith?

Matt 3:2
the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt 5:3-10
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. 5 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. 6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. 8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. 9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. 10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 16:18-20
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Do you think there is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Church? If so, why?

Where do you find in Scripture that the Kingdom of Heaven is NOT the Church?

 

[Lampo]

Where i can it be found that the catholic church has infallilby interpreted that the woman in Revelations 12 is indeed Mary?

“Recapitulated in Christ,” these are the ones who take part in the service of the praise of God and the fulfillment of his plan: the heavenly powers, all creation (the four living beings), the servants of the Old and New Covenants (the twenty-four elders), the new People of God (the one hundred and forty-four thousand),(4) especially the martyrs “slain for the word of God,” and the all-holy Mother of God (the Woman), the Bride of the Lamb,(5) and finally “a great multitude which no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes, and peoples and tongues.”(6) (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 1138)

 

[Lampo]

Where i can it be found that the catholic church has infallilby interpreted that the woman in Revelations 12 is indeed Mary?

Victory over the “prince of this world”(169) was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is “cast out.”(170) “He pursued the woman”(171) but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). “Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.”(172) Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: “Come, Lord Jesus,”(173) since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One. (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 2853)

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3468280]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I can’t think of where the Scriptures say the “Church to be the Kingdom of God here on earth”. Do you have the passage for this?

guanophore
Have you never done a study on the Kingdom of Heaven in the Scripture? I guess that gives you something to look forward to!
Maybe a better use of your time than trying to pull Catholics away from their faith?

Matt 3:2
the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt 5:3-10
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. 5 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. 6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. 8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. 9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. 10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 16:18-20
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Do you think there is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Church? If so, why?

All of these passages may reflect something about the kingdom of heaven but they don’t claim that the church itself is the is the kingdom of God on earth. If the church is the kingdom of God on earth then there are some serious problems that follow from this. For one it would mean the kingdom of God would be responsible for so much evil since the church has done so much of it.

Where do you find in Scripture that the Kingdom of Heaven is NOT the Church?

I can’t think of any passage that equates the 2 as being the same thing.

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;3468295]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where i can it be found that the catholic church has infallilby interpreted that the woman in Revelations 12 is indeed Mary?

Lampo
Victory over the “prince of this world”(169) was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is “cast out.”(170) “He pursued the woman”(171) but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). “Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.”(172) Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: “Come, Lord Jesus,”(173) since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One. (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 2853)

Are you claiming that the catechism of the church are infallible interpretations of the entire Bible? If so, where does your church claim this?

 

[guanophore]

All of these passages may reflect something about the kingdom of heaven but they don’t claim that the church itself is the is the kingdom of God on earth. If the church is the kingdom of God on earth then there are some serious problems that follow from this. For one it would mean the kingdom of God would be responsible for so much evil since the church has done so much of it.

This faulty conclusion comes from your faulty understanding of the nature of the Church. Since you do not recognize that there is more to the Church than the fallible members that are joined to her, you erroneously blame sins and shortcomings on God.

If you read the passages from the Catechism that are posted above, you can see a summary of all the members of the Church who have already been perfected in faith, and are eternally preserved from making errors. These parts of the Church are called the Church Triumphant (they have conquered death and arrived at the destination). We who are still here on earth are called the Church Militant, because we are still “fighting the good fight” in the hope of joining our triumphant brethren.

Are you claiming that the catechism of the church are infallible interpretations of the entire Bible? If so, where does your church claim this?

I don’t think this is a claim that can be supported, and although the Woman in Rev. can be interpreted as Mary, this is not considered a singular infallible interpretation, which is what you asked. She is a multilayered image who carries aspects of Mary but also aspects of other possibilities, such as the true Israel (the Church).

However, it is an infallible proclamation of the Church that Mary has been Assumed, and that she is part of the heavenly hosts praising God.

What is it in scripture that leads you to believe that the Church is NOT the part Kingdom of Heaven? In other words, how is the Church different than the Kingdom?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3468641]
Originally Posted by justasking4
All of these passages may reflect something about the kingdom of heaven but they don’t claim that the church itself is the is the kingdom of God on earth. If the church is the kingdom of God on earth then there are some serious problems that follow from this. For one it would mean the kingdom of God would be responsible for so much evil since the church has done so much of it.

guanophore
This faulty conclusion comes from your faulty understanding of the nature of the Church. Since you do not recognize that there is more to the Church than the fallible members that are joined to her, you erroneously blame sins and shortcomings on God.

This is not a faulty conclusion based on what various catholics have stated about their church. If it is true that to persecute the church is to persecute Jesus (see Acts 9:5) then it would also follow that Jesus would then be responsible to the evil of its members. I don’t even think you would accept such an absurd conclusion.
This is why we need to be very careful in our theology and why so much of catholic theology fails on the details and conclusions drawn.

 

[Lampo]

Are you claiming that the catechism of the church are infallible interpretations of the entire Bible? If so, where does your church claim this?

No I’m not.

III. THE AIM AND INTENDED READERSHIP OF THE CATECHISM

11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church’s Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church’s Magisterium. It is intended to serve “as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries”.15

12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God. Through the bishops, it is addressed to redactors of catechisms, to priests, and to catechists. It will also be useful reading for all other Christian faithful.

13 The plan of this catechism is inspired by the great tradition of catechisms which build catechesis on four pillars: the baptismal profession of faith (the Creed), the sacraments of faith, the life of faith (the Commandments), and the prayer of the believer (the Lord’s Prayer).

 

[Lampo]

VI. NECESSARY ADAPTATIONS

23 The Catechism emphasizes the exposition of doctrine. It seeks to help deepen understanding of faith. In this way it is oriented towards the maturing of that faith, its putting down roots in personal life, and its shining forth in personal conduct.17

24 By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensable adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful:

Whoever teaches must become 'all things to all men' (I Cor 9:22), to win everyone to Christ. . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as newborn babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers.... Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct."18

Above All — Charity

25 To conclude this Prologue, it is fitting to recall this pastoral principle stated by the Roman Catechism:

The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love."19

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;3468727]
VI. NECESSARY ADAPTATIONS

23 The Catechism emphasizes the exposition of doctrine. It seeks to help deepen understanding of faith. In this way it is oriented towards the maturing of that faith, its putting down roots in personal life, and its shining forth in personal conduct.17

Am i to understand by this statement that when a catholic wants to know the interpretation of a verse or passage of Scripture, the catechism is not the place to go?

24 By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensable adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful:

Whoever teaches must become ‘all things to all men’ (I Cor 9:22), to win everyone to Christ. . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as newborn babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers… Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct."18

Above All — Charity

25 To conclude this Prologue, it is fitting to recall this pastoral principle stated by the Roman Catechism:

The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love."19

 

[guanophore]

This is not a faulty conclusion based on what various catholics have stated about their church.

Had you considered not drawing conclusions from “what various catholics have stated”? Since such statements may not be consistent with the doctrine of the Church, wouldn’t it be more appropriate to draw your conclusions from what the Church actually teaches? This Teaching comes to us from Jesus through the Apostles, and that is why it is infallible. Why choose a fallible source over an infallible one? It does not make any sense.

Jesus is the Head of the Church, and the Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit. It is these divine elements of the Church that make the Church Infallible. Members of Christ are joined to the Church, but until we are made perfect by Christ through the HS, we can (and do) make errors.

If it is true that to persecute the church is to persecute Jesus (see Acts 9:5) then it would also follow that Jesus would then be responsible to the evil of its members. I don’t even think you would accept such an absurd conclusion.

So, are you saying that scripture is in error? That persecuting the Church is not the same as persecuting Jesus? I thought you believed that the scripture is without error? Could it be, then, that the error is in your perceptions?

This is why we need to be very careful in our theology and why so much of catholic theology fails on the details and conclusions drawn.

I agree that it is most important to be very careful without our theology. That is one reason that the Catholic Church takes such pains to trace the theological roots of the Teachings back to Jesus through the Apostles.

Saul was persecuting Jesus because Jesus is Head of the Church. Saul persecuted the Christians BECAUSE they were joined to the Head. When people are in perfect unity with the Head, then there is unity in the Church. To the extent that we are not perfectly joined, unity is lacking.

Am i to understand by this statement that when a catholic wants to know the interpretation of a verse or passage of Scripture, the catechism is not the place to go?

Catholics have received the Apostolic Teaching, which does not include this modern innovation of peicemealing scripture verse by verse. Catholics receive that Scripture is to be understood as a whole, and that the whole of the message is consistent in all it’s parts. This is why Catholics interpret scripture in the light of the teaching of the Church. Jesus did not command the Apostles to “write books”. He commissioned them to “teach all that I have commanded”. This teaching is available in Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium of the Church. The catechism is a resource where this teaching can be accessed and understood.

 

[wisdomseeker]

guanophore;3468641]
Originally Posted by justasking4
All of these passages may reflect something about the kingdom of heaven but they don’t claim that the church itself is the is the kingdom of God on earth. If the church is the kingdom of God on earth then there are some serious problems that follow from this. For one it would mean the kingdom of God would be responsible for so much evil since the church has done so much of it.

JA4. Jesus came and He set up a kingdom, if His kingdom is not the Church what do you think it is?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3468750]
Originally Posted by justasking4
This is not a faulty conclusion based on what various catholics have stated about their church.

guanophore
Had you considered not drawing conclusions from “what various catholics have stated”? Since such statements may not be consistent with the doctrine of the Church, wouldn’t it be more appropriate to draw your conclusions from what the Church actually teaches?

Thats just it. Its my understanding that when catholics defend their church they are doing so believing they are correctly interpreting what the catholic church teaches.

guanophore
This Teaching comes to us from Jesus through the Apostles, and that is why it is infallible. Why choose a fallible source over an infallible one? It does not make any sense.

If you mean by “This Teaching comes to us from Jesus through the Apostles, and that is why it is infallible” is the NT Scriptures then i agree. I don’t agree if by it you mean all its Traditions that cannot be found in the NT.

Jesus is the Head of the Church, and the Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Where does the idea come from that the “Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit”?

It is these divine elements of the Church that make the Church Infallible.

That would be great if only that were true. It has already been demonstrated a number of times where the catholic church has erred in a number of areas.

Members of Christ are joined to the Church, but until we are made perfect by Christ through the HS, we can (and do) make errors.

That is absolutely true. That’s why any claim of infalliblity by any church is absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If it is true that to persecute the church is to persecute Jesus (see Acts 9:5) then it would also follow that Jesus would then be responsible to the evil of its members. I don’t even think you would accept such an absurd conclusion.

guanophore
So, are you saying that scripture is in error? That persecuting the Church is not the same as persecuting Jesus? I thought you believed that the scripture is without error? Could it be, then, that the error is in your perceptions?

No the scriptures are not in error but i could be just as you could be since no man is infallible. However this statement in Acts 9:5 is not specifically referring to the church but to the followers of Christ. This distinction needs to be kept in mind since if we say it is a direct reference to the church then this would bring shame on the name of Christ (look at the history of the catholic church). Secondly, the church is also composed of unbelievers who in reality are not of the true church i.e. those who have truly professed Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
This is why we need to be very careful in our theology and why so much of catholic theology fails on the details and conclusions drawn.

guanophore
I agree that it is most important to be very careful without our theology. That is one reason that the Catholic Church takes such pains to trace the theological roots of the Teachings back to Jesus through the Apostles.

Not so. The catholic church is one of the worst violators of this principle. If it took this principle seriously and let it guide it in the formation of doctrine and practice it would never arrive at many of its unbiblical doctrines and practices.

Saul was persecuting Jesus because Jesus is Head of the Church. Saul persecuted the Christians BECAUSE they were joined to the Head. When people are in perfect unity with the Head, then there is unity in the Church. To the extent that we are not perfectly joined, unity is lacking.

So you agree then that the unity that Christ prayed for is absent in the catholic church also since this is also true of the catholic church? Surely we would agree that catholics themselves are not in perfect unity with the catholic church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Am i to understand by this statement that when a catholic wants to know the interpretation of a verse or passage of Scripture, the catechism is not the place to go?

guanophore
Catholics have received the Apostolic Teaching, which does not include this modern innovation of peicemealing scripture verse by verse. Catholics receive that Scripture is to be understood as a whole, and that the whole of the message is consistent in all it’s parts. This is why Catholics interpret scripture in the light of the teaching of the Church. Jesus did not command the Apostles to “write books”. He commissioned them to “teach all that I have commanded”. This teaching is available in Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium of the Church. The catechism is a resource where this teaching can be accessed and understood.

So the bottom line is that you and other catholics have no source you can go to if you want to know the correct interpretation of a verse or passage?
Even though you believe that the Scriptures are to be understood as a whole, you cannot tell if the details are used properly to fit the whole since you don’t know the correct individual meaning of a given verse. This puts you at a serve disadvantage in understanding the scriptures and it also points to why so many catholics are incapable of discerning the doctrines and practices of their church is biblical or not.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3468641]
Originally Posted by justasking4
All of these passages may reflect something about the kingdom of heaven but they don’t claim that the church itself is the is the kingdom of God on earth. If the church is the kingdom of God on earth then there are some serious problems that follow from this. For one it would mean the kingdom of God would be responsible for so much evil since the church has done so much of it.

JA4. Jesus came and He set up a kingdom, if His kingdom is not the Church what do you think it is?

I think this definition is good one for your question:
The kingdom of God is the rule of an eternal sovereign God over all creatures and things (Psalms 103:19; Daniel 4:3). The kingdom of God is also the designation for the sphere of salvation entered into at the new birth (John 3:5-7), and is synonymous with the “kingdom of heaven.”

The kingdom of God embraces all created intelligence, both in heaven and earth that are willingly subject to the Lord and are in fellowship with him. The kingdom of God is therefore, universal in that it includes created angels and men. It is eternal, as God is eternal, and it is spiritual—found within all born-again believers. We enter the kingdom of God when we are born again, and we are then part of that kingdom for eternity. It is a relationship “born of the spirit” (John 3:5) and we have confident assurance that it is so because the Spirit bears witness with our spirits (Romans 8:16).