Protestant service ok to attend?

[genealogist]

Palmas85, yes the Catholic Church is the true Church. But the Fathers of Vatican II chose to say “subsists” in the Catholic Church. That was chosen because it is true AND acknowledges that Christ is present where two or three are gathered in His name. Christ is present at the Protestant worship service through the reading of the Bible, the presence or two or three of the members and the celebration of the sacraments of Baptism and Matrimony.

Your concerns are very valid; that one can be indifferent to the fullness of truth that our Church offers through the Mass etc. However, we need not treat our fellow Christians with the idea that they have no grace in them or their service. We must remember that THEY are not heretics since most were not Catholic(although quite a few are to my dismay). Lifelong Protestants are in a different place than Luther and Calvin and we must try to look at the glass as half full instead of half empty. The ultra-negaitive approach did not heal the rift in almost 500 years maybe a more ecumenical approach will work.

True ecumenism does not split the difference with the other side it talks to each other in truth and tries to find what truly divides us and what things we are surprised to learn we share.

I would agree that it is not a good idea for a Catholic to regularly attend Protestant worship services as a rule. There may be individuals who can do it without scandal or indifference but if they are there regularly what are they trying to find? I am in a mixed marriage and attend a handful to a large handfull of services a year with my wife. I always go to Mass too those weekends and do not participate in the Lord’s Supper there on the six occasions a year they celebrate their memorial service. Since my wife is inactive we rarely have that happen.

It has been good to see that there are Protestants who are on fire for Christ and I hope my presence lets them think about our Church in a better light. This year we are eating dinner there each Wednesday after CCD(and this means they miss the Bible study element) and the kids have choir practice after dinner. They sing in two services a month there so it helps get my wife more involved in her congregation. If our son is expected to attend mass and a service that weekend we ALL go to both. We are trying this until Christmas break and will re-evaluate then. I try to be as ecumenical as allowed without being indifferent.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I don’t really see what the bishop had to apologize for. Perhaps Mr. Howard did not offer a very nuanced argument. Perhaps his words may have been a bit more strict than the current position of the Church. Yet it certainly sounds like the traditional position, and even in the more open atmosphere since Vatican II were are certainly not to regularly attend non-Catholic services and, as I read the documents (as opposed to what a priest or nun will tell you, which unfortunately does not always mirror the mind of the Church) the bias is against attendance because it’s hard to attend without active participation.

I think family situations are the best example of a good reason to attend Protestant services. I myself used to attend with my girlfriend/fiance before she converted to Catholicism. Now that we are married we still sometimes attend with my in-laws if they are going as an extended family. But let there be no confusion. All Protestants are heretics. The question is not the heresy but the culpability - most Protestants are material heretics, not formal heretics. They are in a different situation than Luther and Calvin, but as baptized Christians who deny articles of Catholic faith they are in an objective state of heresy, even though they are not guilty of defecting from the faith.

 

[bear06]

palmas85:

Going to a wedding is not the same as going to a regular religious service. I have never attended any form of Ecumenical service nor would I. My faith is in the Catholic Church only. Sorry, but that is where it is and where it will stay.

One question about ecumenism? Is the Catholic Church the true Church, yes or no??

Go ahead. Find one pre-Vatican II document that condems ecumenism. The only thing you will find are ones that condemn false ecumenism. How does a wedding service differ from a regular service in a protestant church? It would seem that you are willing to make exceptions when they’re OK with you. You haven’t ever been to a pro-life rally? How about the March for Life? These types of things are ecumenical services. Do you really have a problem uniting with protestants to fight abortion?

I’ve told this little story before but here’s a beautiful ecumenical moment. We had a rally before a rescue in a Catholic Church. Fr. Fessio was one of the speakers. In the middle of his pro-life talk he turned around and pointed to the tabernacle and told Catholic and protestants alike that the child in the womb was very similar to Christ in the Host. You can’t see him but he’s there. What a beautiful way to explain the Real Presence to a bunch of protestants. Fr. Fessio used our common pro-life beliefs to teach these people about the Real Presence which would never have occured had the Catholic and protestants been working together.

I also remember one man who literally hated Catholics. You could see the look of disgust on his face everytime he saw us praying the rosary at a rescue. One time in a particularly painful rescue, he saw us taking serious abuse from the police and yet we kept praying. From that moment on he was a completely different man and the last time I saw him he was kneeling down during the Consecration in a Catholic Church at my newly ordained friend’s first Mass. I’ve lost touch with him but I’m very hopeful he has or will convert because of what he saw in Operation Rescue which was a truly ecumenical movement.

Ecumenism - it’s a good thing!

 

[palmas85]

bear06:

Go ahead. Find one pre-Vatican II document that condems ecumenism. The only thing you will find are ones that condemn false ecumenism. How does a wedding service differ from a regular service in a protestant church? It would seem that you are willing to make exceptions when they’re OK with you. You haven’t ever been to a pro-life rally? How about the March for Life? These types of things are ecumenical services. Do you really have a problem uniting with protestants to fight abortion?

I’ve told this little story before but here’s a beautiful ecumenical moment. We had a rally before a rescue in a Catholic Church. Fr. Fessio was one of the speakers. In the middle of his pro-life talk he turned around and pointed to the tabernacle and told Catholic and protestants alike that the child in the womb was very similar to Christ in the Host. You can’t see him but he’s there. What a beautiful way to explain the Real Presence to a bunch of protestants. Fr. Fessio used our common pro-life beliefs to teach these people about the Real Presence which would never have occured had the Catholic and protestants been working together.

I also remember one man who literally hated Catholics. You could see the look of disgust on his face everytime he saw us praying the rosary at a rescue. One time in a particularly painful rescue, he saw us taking serious abuse from the police and yet we kept praying. From that moment on he was a completely different man and the last time I saw him he was kneeling down during the Consecration in a Catholic Church at my newly ordained friend’s first Mass. I’ve lost touch with him but I’m very hopeful he has or will convert because of what he saw in Operation Rescue which was a truly ecumenical movement.

Ecumenism - it’s a good thing!

Why get so testy about it. I believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, am I wrong in that belief?

Going to a wedding is not necessarily a worship service. I’ve attended Jewish Weddings, one Muslim Wedding and several Protestant Weddings. I attended them to show and give support to the couple as they embarked on their life, not to worship God. I draw a sharp distinction there.

As far as ecumenism being a good thing, I would have to disagree with that statement by and large. The problem as I see it is very simple. In regards to the Protestants, they explicitly reject in totality certain key elements of the Catholic faith, and in many cases do not even consider Catholics to be Christians, but rather a cult. Since there will in all likelihood never be full agreement on these basic fundamental issues, I really see to need for ecumenical dialogue. We are not going to change their mings nor they ours. I say respect each other and let it go.

As far as uniting with anyone to fight abortion, that need not be a religious thing at all. I have two co-workers , staunchly pro life, who are athiests. They believe murder is wrong on a societal level and do not even bring religion into it.

And I will repeat my question, is the Catholic Church the true Church, yes or no?.

You did not answer that question.

 

[bear06]

And I will repeat my question, is the Catholic Church the true Church, yes or no?.

You did not answer that question.

You make me laugh, Palmas. Nobody accused you of being wrong about the Church being the One True Church. Where did you get this idea? I only say that you are wrong that ecumenism is a bad thing. I’m still wondering if you are going to produce a document saying that ecumenism is bad? If the Church does not say that ecumenism is bad, why would you? The Church talks of ecumenism and has shown ecumenism pre and post-Vatican II.

I’ve answered this on many different threads and I’m still wondering why I have to answer again and again and again and I’m still wondering what the point is in asking this. I’ve yet to see any Catholic say that the Catholic Church is not the TRUE CHURCH. So, if it makes you feel better…Yes, the Catholic Church is THE TRUE CHURCH which is, by the way, why I am Catholic.

I still think it hypocritical to think that a wedding is different than any other protestant service. You’re just fine wishing someone well as they embark on a life not in the Catholic Church but you’re not OK praying with them on any other levels? This seems to be splitting imaginary hairs. I’m sure the protestants see it as a worship service being that they’re probably having some prayers, bible readings, etc.

Have you really never been to a pro-life event like a rally where Catholic and protestants pray together for the end of abortion?

 

[palmas85]

bear06:
You make me laugh, Palmas. Nobody accused you of being wrong about the Church being the One True Church. Where did you get this idea? I only say that you are wrong that ecumenism is a bad thing. I’m still wondering if you are going to produce a document saying that ecumenism is bad? If the Church does not say that ecumenism is bad, why would you? The Church talks of ecumenism and has shown ecumenism pre and post-Vatican II.

I’ve answered this on many different threads and I’m still wondering why I have to answer again and again and again and I’m still wondering what the point is in asking this. I’ve yet to see any Catholic say that the Catholic Church is not the TRUE CHURCH. So, if it makes you feel better…Yes, the Catholic Church is THE TRUE CHURCH which is, by the way, why I am Catholic.

I still think it hypocritical to think that a wedding is different than any other protestant service. You’re just fine wishing someone well as they embark on a life not in the Catholic Church but you’re not OK praying with them on any other levels? This seems to be splitting imaginary hairs. I’m sure the protestants see it as a worship service being that they’re probably having some prayers, bible readings, etc.

Have you really never been to a pro-life event like a rally where Catholic and protestants pray together for the end of abortion?

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, and I believe that it is, why would I attend another one? What could I possibly gain? What could they possibly have to show me or even interest me??

 

[palmas85]

bear06:
You make me laugh, Palmas. Nobody accused you of being wrong about the Church being the One True Church. Where did you get this idea? I only say that you are wrong that ecumenism is a bad thing. I’m still wondering if you are going to produce a document saying that ecumenism is bad? If the Church does not say that ecumenism is bad, why would you? The Church talks of ecumenism and has shown ecumenism pre and post-Vatican II.

I’ve answered this on many different threads and I’m still wondering why I have to answer again and again and again and I’m still wondering what the point is in asking this. I’ve yet to see any Catholic say that the Catholic Church is not the TRUE CHURCH. So, if it makes you feel better…Yes, the Catholic Church is THE TRUE CHURCH which is, by the way, why I am Catholic.

I still think it hypocritical to think that a wedding is different than any other protestant service. You’re just fine wishing someone well as they embark on a life not in the Catholic Church but you’re not OK praying with them on any other levels? This seems to be splitting imaginary hairs. I’m sure the protestants see it as a worship service being that they’re probably having some prayers, bible readings, etc.

Have you really never been to a pro-life event like a rally where Catholic and protestants pray together for the end of abortion?

Why is it hypocritical? I don’t pray at a Baptist Church if I go to a wedding at one and when I attended a Muslem wedding, I did not pray or take part in the rituals. I was there and observed respectfully and somewhat sadly too I might add.

I believe that the Church encourages ecumenical dialogue in the hope that one day all Christians and in fact all people might be re-united under one banner. But for that to happen the worlds religions would have to accept that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. The catechism itself says as much.

No I don’t have any docvuments that say ecumenical dialogue or ecumenism is bad… But I don’t have any documents that encourage me to pray at a Mosque, or to attend a hannakuh service at the temple or to receive communion at a Lutheran Church either.

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, and I believe wholeheartedly that it is, then why would I need to or even have a desire to attend another Church or pray at one or take part in their services?. If a non Catholic came to Mass I would not expect that he would receive Holy Communion, or pray a Rosary or genuflect in front of the Tabernacle, because they do not believe in those things. I would think if a non Catholic came to Mass he would observe, maybe say a prayer or two of his own faith, but beyond that, nothing.

I respect everyone and if they choose not to believe in the Catholic faith, so be it. I feel sorry for them, and pray that one day they may come to the true Church, but I could not take part at their services and observe their rituals and practices. There is nothing in their Churches or faiths that interest me or that could possibly be of any benefit to me.

At least nothing that I can think of. And i am glad if I make you laugh. It is better than making you cry.

 

[robertaf]

palmas85:

Why would anyone want to??? There is nothing in a Protestant service that would interest me so I can see no valid reason to attend.

Palmas!!!

I do not like green beans. I cannot see why EVERYONE does not see green beans exactly like I do. There is NO valid reason to eat them because I DO NOT LIKE THEM.

That, my friend is what your post sounded like.

The fact is, I grew up as a Protestant. My grandma and grandpa who I loved, were Protestants. They probably lived a Christian life better than anyone I knew. I learned the Bible on their knees. My grandparents were country musicians. Grandpa was an Irish Fiddler and grandma chorded for him on the piano. I grew up with wonderful Christian music.

Now, I happen to be a Catholic Charismatic. I love that kind of Praise and Worship. I fully enjoy a good Protestant service now and then. I am also a very Orthodox Catholic.

I would never miss Mass to attend a non-Catholic service.

 

[bear06]

Palmas,

I’m really trying to understand where you are coming from on this issue. Let me ask you a few more questions. Do you think it’s wrong to pray with protestants in general or just at a protestant service? What about a prayer service at a protestant church for the end of abortion? Is it OK to pray with protestants in a Catholic church? And one final question… When you go to a protestant wedding, you don’t feel that you can pray with the congregation for that marriage to be blessed by God?

 

[palmas85]

bear06:

Palmas,

I’m really trying to understand where you are coming from on this issue. Let me ask you a few more questions. Do you think it’s wrong to pray with protestants in general or just at a protestant service? What about a prayer service at a protestant church for the end of abortion? Is it OK to pray with protestants in a Catholic church? And one final question… When you go to a protestant wedding, you don’t feel that you can pray with the congregation for that marriage to be blessed by God?

I would not be in a Protestant Church except for certain distinct societal functions, a wedding or funeral for example and then only to pay respects. Not for ay other reason. I have never invited Protestants to Mass unless they were thinking of converting and because Protestants have a diffrent value and belief system than we do. Yes, I do feel that by and large, there are always exceptions, it is wrong to pray with them.

I may very well be wrong on this, but since you and and least oe other poster seem to have a problem with my position I will try to explain.

I have worked work with the Law, on a daily basis for over 20 years on a Local, State and Federal Level. The law is usually fairly clear on things as is the Church. There are of course exceptions but by and large things are consistent.

The Catholic Church says it is the one true Church and I believe that. The other churches say they are the one true church and we are not. I don’t believe them. I have heard from some in the Church that “Partial Truth” MAY be found in other Churches. After my over 20 years in law enforcement, I can tell you without any fear of being wrong exactly what Partial Truth is.

Partial Truth is a lie. that is why in court people swear to tell the whole truth not a partial truth.

So I ask you, if the other churches only offer partial truth, and we offer the whole truth, why accept the partial truth or rather, the lies of the others?

 

[palmas85]

robertaf:

Palmas!!!

I do not like green beans. I cannot see why EVERYONE does not see green beans exactly like I do. There is NO valid reason to eat them because I DO NOT LIKE THEM.

That, my friend is what your post sounded like.

The fact is, I grew up as a Protestant. My grandma and grandpa who I loved, were Protestants. They probably lived a Christian life better than anyone I knew. I learned the Bible on their knees. My grandparents were country musicians. Grandpa was an Irish Fiddler and grandma chorded for him on the piano. I grew up with wonderful Christian music.

Now, I happen to be a Catholic Charismatic. I love that kind of Praise and Worship. I fully enjoy a good Protestant service now and then. I am also a very Orthodox Catholic.

I would never miss Mass to attend a non-Catholic service.

If you enjoy Protestant services that is your business. Attend them all you want to. I don’t attend them because I don’t believe that they offer the truth that the Catholic Church does. I am sure your family does love the Lord and are good people.But that does not make their beliefs right and does not assure their salvation.

I sincerely doubt that truly Orthodox Catholics spend much time in Protestant services, since many Protestants don’t even consider Catholics to be Christians.

I am not surprised in your case though as many Charismatic Catholics actually seem to prefer Protestant or Protetsant style services, although I don’t really understand why. The whole Charismatic Catholic thing is a relatively recent innovation,and from everything I have read on it seems to be in a relatively stagnant state now after having very good growth through the 80’s and early 90’s.

 

[genealogist]

Palmas85, remember what our Lord said to the disciples when they complained about the man casting out demons without being a follower of Jesus’ He did not support their opposition.

I agree that with “Reformation” Day to be celebrated in Protestant services this weekend, it is not always easy to love our Protestant neighbors. However, we must remember that despite any deficiencies in their beliefs and communities, they are our brothers in the Lord. That does not mean people can disregard the errors in their teaching and worship but we are not to ignore their gifts and blessings as well.

 

[palmas85]

genealogist:

Palmas85, remember what our Lord said to the disciples when they complained about the man casting out demons without being a follower of Jesus’ He did not support their opposition.

I agree that with “Reformation” Day to be celebrated in Protestant services this weekend, it is not always easy to love our Protestant neighbors. However, we must remember that despite any deficiencies in their beliefs and communities, they are our brothers in the Lord. That does not mean people can disregard the errors in their teaching and worship but we are not to ignore their gifts and blessings as well.

I do not ignore whatever blessings they might have. By definition, they cannot have more blessings than the Holy Catholic Church. I choose not to partake of their deficiencies.

By attending their services, could it not be argued that I am showing tacit support for their erroneous teachings and positions? What other possible motivation would I have to attend? To show unity in Christ? How could that be? They do not accept His position as head of the Catholic Church. In fact, as I have stated often on this forum, many if not most Protestants do not even consider Catholics to be true Christians. By attending their services, knowing full well of their obvious deficiencies, what could I have gained? Or more aptly and properly, what could I have lost?

I do not hate them, I love them and I pity them. I pray that they return to the Church. However, that cannot be accomplished by attending their services or by giving up the Catholic Churches teachings and beliefs just to accomodate their errors.

 

[bear06]

Palmas,
Yes, there are exceptions and many of them. I find it interesting that Fulton Sheen prayed with Protestants and actually seemed to hold some of them up as examples like Pastor Wurmbrand who had had on his show. Why would he do this if there were no truth to be found in Wurmbrand’s faith?

Not only that, Fulton Sheen told how he believed the Moslem’s belief in Mary as seen in the Koran (a little truth found in an unholy, uncatholic place) would eventually bring them to the Church. Here’s his prescription for missionaries from “The World’s First Love”:

Because the Moslems have a devotion to Mary, our missionaries should be satisfied merely to expand and to develop that devotion, with the full realization that Our Blessed Lady will carry the Moslems the rest of the way to her divine Son.

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4000

He is saying to take the truth in their faith and show them that this is really Catholic and they should take further steps toward the Church. He’s not saying that we should buy into their faith but he is advising us to find the truth in their faith and help them expound upon that.

Ah well, you’re probably not a Fulton Sheen fan anyway.

Let’s not forget the Council of Florence where Catholics and Greek Orthodox prayed together for unity. The horrors!

Wow, it’s sad to think that you’ve never invited a protestant to Mass unless they were thinking of converting. I’ve invited many a protestant to Mass (even though they wouldn’t be able to receive Communion) and have even taught some how to say the rosary. They may have or may not have converted but the ones that did, I’m sure, were surely helped by being in front of Our Lord’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and who better to lead Mary to her Son? It sounds as if you advocate a “you stay on your side and I’ll stay on mine” kind of attitude with protestants.

 

[bear06]

By attending their services, could it not be argued that I am showing tacit support for their erroneous teachings and positions? What other possible motivation would I have to attend? To show unity in Christ? How could that be? They do not accept His position as head of the Catholic Church. In fact, as I have stated often on this forum, many if not most Protestants do not even consider Catholics to be true Christians. By attending their services, knowing full well of their obvious deficiencies, what could I have gained? Or more aptly and properly, what could I have lost?

Our actions are not always based on what others think of them. They saints have shown us that on many occasions.

I believe it would be scandalous to say that you agree with everything in a protestant denomination. You’re right here. However, it is also wrong to say that they have no truth. They don’t have the fullness of truth. I do think that it’s a beautiful thing when you can take the truth they have in their faith and expound upon it and to show them the misconceptions they have about the One True Faith. Sometimes this can actually be done by attending a protestant service. Oh well, it seems we will not agree on this issue.

 

[palmas85]

bear06:

Our actions are not always based on what others think of them. They saints have shown us that on many occasions.

I believe it would be scandalous to say that you agree with everything in a protestant denomination. You’re right here. However, it is also wrong to say that they have no truth. They don’t have the fullness of truth. I do think that it’s a beautiful thing when you can take the truth they have in their faith and expound upon it and to show them the misconceptions they have about the One True Faith. Sometimes this can actually be done by attending a protestant service. Oh well, it seems we will not agree on this issue.

The fullness of truth. What a statement, remarkable, the fullness or the completeness of truth. Sounds positively attractive and manageable. Unfortunately the problem is this, an incomplete truth is a lie either by commission or ommission. It can really be no other way. Suppose that someone asks you what is your true and correct name. You reply John, leaving out your middle and last name. You have lied. You have not given the information asked for. You have given exactly what you wanted to give. Thus is the situation with the Protestants , they Believe exactly what they want to believe, ignoring that which they don’t want to believe or accept.

While I would hope that a good Catholic could be an example to a Protestant, and cause them to return to the church, I have seen precious little evidence of it happening.

 

[palmas85]

bear06:

Palmas,
Yes, there are exceptions and many of them. I find it interesting that Fulton Sheen prayed with Protestants and actually seemed to hold some of them up as examples like Pastor Wurmbrand who had had on his show. Why would he do this if there were no truth to be found in Wurmbrand’s faith?

Not only that, Fulton Sheen told how he believed the Moslem’s belief in Mary as seen in the Koran (a little truth found in an unholy, uncatholic place) would eventually bring them to the Church. Here’s his prescription for missionaries from “The World’s First Love”:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4000

He is saying to take the truth in their faith and show them that this is really Catholic and they should take further steps toward the Church. He’s not saying that we should buy into their faith but he is advising us to find the truth in their faith and help them expound upon that.

Ah well, you’re probably not a Fulton Sheen fan anyway.

Let’s not forget the Council of Florence where Catholics and Greek Orthodox prayed together for unity. The horrors!

Wow, it’s sad to think that you’ve never invited a protestant to Mass unless they were thinking of converting. I’ve invited many a protestant to Mass (even though they wouldn’t be able to receive Communion) and have even taught some how to say the rosary. They may have or may not have converted but the ones that did, I’m sure, were surely helped by being in front of Our Lord’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and who better to lead Mary to her Son? It sounds as if you advocate a “you stay on your side and I’ll stay on mine” kind of attitude with protestants.

The problem with the scenario of Bishop Fulton Sheen, of Blessed memory, is that while he prayed with and advocated better relations with Protestants and non-Catholics, Muslems being a splendid example by the way, he also advocated their conversion to and re-unification with the Catholic Church… I don’t recall that the good Bishop ever said the Baptist Church is just as good as the Holy Catholic Church or that a Lutheran Communion Service is of equal value as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. No, Bishop Sheen was a hard core Caholic through and through. Sadly though today we are advised to accept others faiths as having equal value to ours and strive to find common ground rather than try to convert them

The Protestants and the Muslims too by the way, do not adopt this tactic however, and use basically any means at their disposal to try to convert us. A quick look at the internet will provide hundreds and possibly thousand of sites advocating just that, the conversion of catholics to one church or another. Look at the situation in Mexico and the Philippines for example, two countries that I know well. The Protestant churches, mainly evangelical groups are converting thousands upon thousands to their churches. Most if not all of the people were baptized Catholics, yet they left the faith. Why? I believe it is in great part die to our very complacency and what they perceive as a weakness of the faith. Put simply, the Catholic Church, in what looks to be an attempt not to hurt anyones feelings, and to be politically correct at all costs, will not stand up and proclaim the truth to the world. Instead we get this wishy washy I love you you love me stuff that is thrown about ad nauseum.

That to me is the core problem with ecumenism. We cannot have it both ways and the Church is trying to do just that. We cannot claim to be the one true Church on one hand, and say that all faiths are equal on the other. We either are or we are not the true church. If we are, we should strive mightily to bring the others into the fold. We should stop at nothing to convert them and save them. If we are not, then we really have no right to even try, which sadly to say seems to be the route the Vatican would have us take.

 

[bear06]

palmas85:

The fullness of truth. What a statement, remarkable, the fullness or the completeness of truth. Sounds positively attractive and manageable. Unfortunately the problem is this, an incomplete truth is a lie either by commission or ommission. It can really be no other way. Suppose that someone asks you what is your true and correct name. You reply John, leaving out your middle and last name. You have lied. You have not given the information asked for. You have given exactly what you wanted to give. Thus is the situation with the Protestants , they Believe exactly what they want to believe, ignoring that which they don’t want to believe or accept.

While I would hope that a good Catholic could be an example to a Protestant, and cause them to return to the church, I have seen precious little evidence of it happening.

I think you need to re-read your post again because it doesn’t make sense. Incompleteness isn’t a lie, it’s just that, incomplete. While I’m sure there are those who fully understand the Catholic Faith and reject it, I’m sure there are far more that simply don’t have the grace to fully grasp it. Incompleteness would only be a lie if someone left out something with the intent to deceive. You analogy has nothing to do with people’s understanding of God. Look at what you said with your analogy. A person is asked what his name is, he answers John and you believe he is lying because he didn’t know you wanted to know his full name?! It’s lack of understanding, not a lie. You don’t seem to have tolerance for a lack of understanding. Most protestants don’t have a clue about the Catholic Faith, thus we have Catholic Answers!

BTW, who was the last pope that called protestants liars?

 

[palmas85]

bear06:

I think you need to re-read your post again because it doesn’t make sense. Incompleteness isn’t a lie, it’s just that, incomplete. While I’m sure there are those who fully understand the Catholic Faith and reject it, I’m sure there are far more that simply don’t have the grace to fully grasp it. Incompleteness would only be a lie if someone left out something with the intent to deceive. You analogy has nothing to do with people’s understanding of God. Look at what you said with your analogy. A person is asked what his name is, he answers John and you believe he is lying because he didn’t know you wanted to know his full name?! It’s lack of understanding, not a lie. You don’t seem to have tolerance for a lack of understanding. Most protestants don’t have a clue about the Catholic Faith, thus we have Catholic Answers!

BTW, who was the last pope that called protestants liars?

The example of asking a name I agree in retrospect doesn’t really work too well. However, lets say this. The Protestants do not accept lets say the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They say there is Biblical evidence of it so it did not happen. They don’t say maybe, they say no, it did not happen period, end of discussion. That is common to their beliefs. Truth or untruth? The Protestants say there is no biblical evidence of the Eucharist being the actual body and blood of Christ Jesus after consecration. They say it does not happen, period no way no how. . Common to their beliefs. Truth or untruth? There are radically different interpretations and beliefs at work here.

True most Protestants don’t have a clue, but they don’t want to have one either. In many cases, not all but many, we are looked upon as meeting all of the conditions of being a cult.

Since the Protestat leaders both now and then, are and were fairly well educated men,. it seems likey to me that they understand and firmly reject the Catholic Churches teachings. Martin Luther you will recall was a Catholic Priest and professor of theology. Yet he expressly rejected many of the teachings of the Church, and laid the foundations of what we have today.

In ending I don’t believe that turning a blind eye to the truth and loudly proclaiming a lie indicates a lack of grace. No it represents conscious rejection of the truth, and that is exactly what they have done and continue to do.

 

[bear06]

In ending I don’t believe that turning a blind eye to the truth and loudly proclaiming a lie indicates a lack of grace. No it represents conscious rejection of the truth, and that is exactly what they have done and continue to do.

You’ve just described all sinners whether Catholic or protestant. So, who are you going to say we shouldn’t pray with or attend a worship service next? It would seem if you follow your line of thinking, we shouldn’t be attending Mass with some Catholics either.