Protestant Services

[nova147]

I know the general teaching – Catholics should not attend Protestant services, except for certain special occasions (weddings, ecumenical services, etc). I understand the reason for Mass attendance (worship), why it is different from the Protestant service (Body and Blood of Christ vs. symbolism), and how it can be dangerous to your faith life. But my sister and I got into a discussion, and quite frankly, I’m stumped.

Basically, her question was “Why would God care if you worshiped somewhere else once in a while?” The context of this question: my nephew was playing bells at my parents’ Protestant worship service. He wanted me to come and watch, so I arranged to attend an early Mass and then go to this other service. (They played beautifully, BTW.) My sister, who is agnostic and very much searching, gets why I wouldn’t take communion at a Protestant church. She gets why I go every week. But she just doesn’t know why it would matter to God if I only went to this Protestant service on that particular day. I guess I see how “just this once” can lead to all the time, and obviously that’s a problem. I also see how this could be scandalous. Does anyone have a solid answer, particularly one that might appeal to my sister’s agnostic thought process?

Thanks,

MJ

 

[JPUSC]

Protestant ‘churches’ are, in the view of the Catholic Church, considered ecclesial communities as they are lacking certain fundamental elements. Attending their services can be likened to attending a Catholic conference or prayer group - it may be spiritually fulfilling, but they aren’t sacraments where graces are received.

You can’t take communion at a Protestant church because it is contrary to your faith. Catholics believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, while many Protestant communities believe that communion is only a reenactment of the Last Supper. To accept their communion would be affirming their belief. You don’t take part in a ritual you don’t believe in.

The Protestants pretty much took our beliefs and traditions and molded them into their own beliefs and practices which weren’t exactly inspired by the Holy Spirit.

See: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=229077

Christ established here on earth only one Church and instituted it as a ‘visible and spiritual community,’ that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted.

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.

According to Catholic doctrine, these [Protestant] communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church.

These ecclesial communities, which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called ‘Churches’ in the proper sense.

zenit.org/article-20098?l=english

 

[Spirithound]

I understand the reason for Mass attendance (worship), why it is different from the Protestant service (Body and Blood of Christ vs. symbolism), and how it can be dangerous to your faith life.

Basically, her question was “Why would God care if you worshiped somewhere else once in a while?”

My thoughts are that you can’t worship at a Protestant service because it’s not worship.

Worship has always had an element of sacrifice to it, that’s why in the Catholic Church we re-present the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord to the Father. Protestants do not have a valid Eucharist, and so you would not be fulfilling your obligation to assist at the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[Hoxbar]

So since you don’t agree with a churches teachings, this means that their worship is not worship or accepted by God. I don’t believe this to be true. You can find reference in scripture (mark5) where people worshiped Christ even though they werenit living a Christian life. So your comment that noncatholic worship is not worship is absured.

 

[nova147]

My thoughts are that you can’t worship at a Protestant service because it’s not worship.

Worship has always had an element of sacrifice to it, that’s why in the Catholic Church we re-present the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord to the Father. Protestants do not have a valid Eucharist, and so you would not be fulfilling your obligation to assist at the Holy Sacrifice.

Do you have a reference for worship always having sacrifice?

So, you’re saying we cannot worship God outside of Mass? And the consequences of a “no” to me are concerning – we don’t worship God in our daily lives, unless we are fortunate enough to get to daily Mass? We cannot worship if our health or other circumstances prevent us from attending Mass? I’m not sure I can agree with that.

MJ

 

[Spirithound]

So since you don’t agree with a churches teachings, this means that their worship is not worship or accepted by God.

I didn’t say that. First off, this has nothing to do with whether I agree with their teachings, and I said nothing about their praise and honour being rejected by God.

I don’t believe this to be true. You can find reference in scripture (mark5) where people worshiped Christ even though they werenit living a Christian life. So your comment that noncatholic worship is not worship is absured.

Mark 5 has people falling on their knees in front of Jesus. It doesn’t say that that is worship.

 

[Snerticus]

I think personally that it’s because Catholic and Protestant worship are based on different ideas.

Catholics do believe that worship entails sacrifice, Protestants don’t believe any more sacrifice is needed other than Christ’s sacrifice 2000 years ago.

That’s my take on it anyway. But I have to go to Mass soon…will try to catch up later.

God Bless,
Snert

 

[Spirithound]

Do you have a reference for worship always having sacrifice?

So, you’re saying we cannot worship God outside of Mass? And the consequences of a “no” to me are concerning – we don’t worship God in our daily lives, unless we are fortunate enough to get to daily Mass? We cannot worship if our health or other circumstances prevent us from attending Mass? I’m not sure I can agree with that.

I don’t have a direct reference for worship always having sacrifice.
However, recall many instances in the Old Testament, Abel sacrificed fat portions of his sheep; Abraham was about to sacrifice his son but then God provided a ram; Elijah sacrificed a bull to show the followers of Baal that YHWH is God; and even circumcision is a kind of sacrifice, marking the Jews as God’s people.

Recall also the Temple rituals: new parents would bring in their infants to be blessed and they would offer a sacrifice; the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies once a year on Yom Kippur to offer a sacrifice in front of the Mercy Seat; to commemorate Passover, the Jews sacrificed a lamb, and when the Temple was built, they offered the sacrifice there.

It seems that every instance of the Jews’ highest praise/honour/worship of God all involved sacrifice.

catholic.com/library/Institution_of_the_Mass.asp
I’d like you to look at this link, and scroll down, if you like (because the whole article is very interesting) to the section called “The Manner of Melchizedek”, and the 4th paragraph there, and it explains how every time the Greek word “anamnesis” occurs in the Bible, it is in a sacrificial context.

So, it seems that all this really dances around the issue of whether Protestants can worship, so I will retract on that account. It is clear, however what kind of worship God asks of us, and that is the re-presentation of His Son’s Sacrifice, and that is where Protestant ecclesial communities fall short.

To answer your next question, I am not sure whether we can worship God outside of the Eucharist (perhaps it is a matter of semantics) (but I do stand for correction by someone more knowledgeable than myself). But, if someone is housebound, they could have someone bring the Eucharist to them, and I would say that that is a participation in the Mass, of a kind.

This is not to denigrate our daily prayers, or devotions to Saints or anything like that, because they are very important, but I really feel that it is even more important to realize that Jesus is truly present on the altar, and this is the highest honour we can give God.

 

[LilyM]

To your friend’s question I would say ‘why would your husband/wife care if you slept with another man/woman once in a while’? There’s a notion of exclusivity and fidelity involved in being Christian - exampled by the early martyrs who refused to worship alongside pagan Romans, although the Romans, being polytheistic, were accepting enough to include a statue of Christ among the statues of other gods in their Pantheon building (or so I’ve heard).

Taking Communion in another church is in a whole other league to merely attending a worship service, at least for Catholics and SOME other Christian churches.

It is an expression of being in communion with the church in which you take it - meaning you assent to their teachings and are in essence expressing yourself to be a member in good standing of that church.

 

[Hoxbar]

My thoughts are that you can’t worship at a Protestant service because it’s not worship.

Worship has always had an element of sacrifice to it, that’s why in the Catholic Church we re-present the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord to the Father. Protestants do not have a valid Eucharist, and so you would not be fulfilling your obligation to assist at the Holy Sacrifice.

What you said was, that (Catholics) cannot worship because it is not worship! How narrow minded. Anyone can worship or Lord even though you might not agree with it. Sacrifice is not always needed for worship, find it in scripture.

 

[Spirithound]

What you said was, that (Catholics) cannot worship because it is not worship! How narrow minded. Anyone can worship or Lord even though you might not agree with it. Sacrifice is not always needed for worship, find it in scripture.

The Catholic Church makes very bold claims. I stand by them to the best of my knowledge, but I am always open to correction.

Also, see my latest post above.

 

[nova147]

I don’t have a direct reference for worship always having sacrifice.
However, recall many instances in the Old Testament, Abel sacrificed fat portions of his sheep; Abraham was about to sacrifice his son but then God provided a ram; Elijah sacrificed a bull to show the followers of Baal that YHWH is God; and even circumcision is a kind of sacrifice, marking the Jews as God’s people.

Recall also the Temple rituals: new parents would bring in their infants to be blessed and they would offer a sacrifice; the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies once a year on Yom Kippur to offer a sacrifice in front of the Mercy Seat; to commemorate Passover, the Jews sacrificed a lamb, and when the Temple was built, they offered the sacrifice there.

It seems that every instance of the Jews’ highest praise/honour/worship of God all involved sacrifice.

catholic.com/library/Institution_of_the_Mass.asp
I’d like you to look at this link, and scroll down, if you like (because the whole article is very interesting) to the section called “The Manner of Melchizedek”, and the 4th paragraph there, and it explains how every time the Greek word “anamnesis” occurs in the Bible, it is in a sacrificial context.

So, it seems that all this really dances around the issue of whether Protestants can worship, so I will retract on that account. It is clear, however what kind of worship God asks of us, and that is the re-presentation of His Son’s Sacrifice, and that is where Protestant ecclesial communities fall short.

To answer your next question, I am not sure whether we can worship God outside of the Eucharist (perhaps it is a matter of semantics) (but I do stand for correction by someone more knowledgeable than myself). But, if someone is housebound, they could have someone bring the Eucharist to them, and I would say that that is a participation in the Mass, of a kind.

This is not to denigrate our daily prayers, or devotions to Saints or anything like that, because they are very important, but I really feel that it is even more important to realize that Jesus is truly present on the altar, and this is the highest honour we can give God.

Thank you for this – the connection to the Old Testament is very helpful. Somehow, despite being a relatively intelligent and educated individual, it seems motherhood has greatly decreased my ability to draw these kinds of connections on my own. I can only hope God is using this little sacrifice for good in my kids!

But serious, the sacrificial nature of Judaic worship is very helpful to me. I am a convert to Catholicism and did not spent much time learning about the OT when I was growing up. So, despite my belief in the importance of the OT to understand the NT, I sometimes neglect to look there at all.

I completely agree with the conclusion of your last paragraph. This is what is most important. I truly appreciate that you have graciously re-defined these ideas for me. I must admit, the question had me a bit off balanced, which bothered me because I have felt great frustration at some cradle Catholics who seem to take the fact that GOD is truly, physically present in the Mass for granted! And yet, here I was, wondering why GOD cared if I went to Mass or another “worship” service. I greatly appreciate your help in getting back in the right frame of mind. And I believe this information may be helpful with my sister as well. Thank you!

MJ

 

[Contarini]

I know the general teaching – Catholics should not attend Protestant services, except for certain special occasions (weddings, ecumenical services, etc).

Where do you find this teaching? Are there are any authoritative Catholic documents teaching this post-Vatican II? It would seem odd for the Catholic Church to encourage Catholics and non-Catholics to pray together on special occasions (“ecumenical services,” as you note) but forbid Catholics from praying with Protestants in the normal worship services of the latter. I know of no evidence that this is the intention of the Vatican II documents or of the Catechism. If you know of such evidence, please inform me.

Edwin

 

[JPUSC]

To your friend’s question I would say ‘why would your husband/wife care if you slept with another man/woman once in a while’?

Good one!

 

[rwoehmke]

My thoughts are that you can’t worship at a Protestant service because it’s not worship.

Worship has always had an element of sacrifice to it, that’s why in the Catholic Church we re-present the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord to the Father. Protestants do not have a valid Eucharist, and so you would not be fulfilling your obligation to assist at the Holy Sacrifice.

Exactly, the non-Catholic concept of worship and Catholic worship are worlds apart. It is the main reason why we are constantly accused of worshiping Mary and/or the saints.

 

[mreiter72]

What if a person did not attend Protestant services instead of mass, but in addition to, at least occasionally, without taking communion? I love mass and far prefer it over the Protestant service because of its somber, beautiful reverance. I prefer the music at mass also. But I do have friends who invite me to their services and, while I agree those services do provide a different sort of function than Catholic mass, I get something out of that kind of worship also.

 

[NHInsider]

My thoughts are that you can’t worship at a Protestant service because it’s not worship.

Worship has always had an element of sacrifice to it, that’s why in the Catholic Church we re-present the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord to the Father. Protestants do not have a valid Eucharist, and so you would not be fulfilling your obligation to assist at the Holy Sacrifice.

So since you don’t agree with a churches teachings, this means that their worship is not worship or accepted by God. I don’t believe this to be true. You can find reference in scripture (mark5) where people worshiped Christ even though they werenit living a Christian life. So your comment that noncatholic worship is not worship is absured.

Do you have a reference for worship always having sacrifice?

So, you’re saying we cannot worship God outside of Mass? And the consequences of a “no” to me are concerning – we don’t worship God in our daily lives, unless we are fortunate enough to get to daily Mass? We cannot worship if our health or other circumstances prevent us from attending Mass? I’m not sure I can agree with that.

MJ

Not to put words into anyone’s mouth, but I think there are two related but not identical issues here. First is whether or not attending a Protestant service is a form of worship, and separate is whether or not it fulfills the Catholic’s obligation to participate in the Sunday Mass.

Since there are many Biblical references to worship which do not explicitly involve sacrifice, as well as references to “the sacrifice of praise” and other such, I think it is clear that the worship service of a Protestant “ecclesial communion” is in fact worship, as is a festival of praise in a stadium or an individual glorifying God on a mountaintop. But -

Catholics are obliged to attend the Sunday Sacrifice of the Mass if at all possible, and none of the above forms of worship fulfill that obligation. So the OP is correct in her decision to attend an early Mass and then go to the Protestant service and share in the prayers of that community, while abstaining from their communion rite.

 

[JonNC]

catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=11541

**Joint Catholic-Lutheran Vespers at Vatican **

Nov. 15, 1999

VATICAN (CWNews.com) – **Pope John Paul II (bio - news) presided at an ecumenical celebration of Vespers in St. Peter’s Basilica on November 13, along with Lutheran bishops from Scandinavia, with the Swedish royal family present for the occasion. The solemn ceremony marked the conclusion of an international Lutheran-Catholic symposium honored St. Brigitte of Sweden. **
Archbishops G. H. Hammar and Jukka Paarma-- the Lutheran primates of Sweden and Finland, respectively-- and Bishops Anders Arborelius of Stockholm and Czeslaw Kozon of Copenhagen joined with the Holy Father for the Vespers service. Several other Lutheran bishops from the Scandinavian countries were present for the ceremony, including two female bishops. In his remarks during the service, Pope John Paul insisted on the necessity for Christian unity, recalling that a similar ecumenical celebration had taken place on October 5, 1991, on the 400th anniversary of the canonization of St. Brigitte. (Eight years later, the Holy Father named St. Brigitte as a co-patron of Europe.) He also mentioned the recent Catholic-Lutheran declaration of justification.

Among those attending the Vespers service was the former Polish President Lech Walesa, who is known for his interest in Catholic- Lutheran unity and for his devotion to St. Brigitte.

At the conclusion of the ceremony, the Pope and the Lutheran bishops left St. Peter’s Basilica together, to bless a new white-marble statue of St. Brigitte. Then the Pope and the Swedish royal couple-- King Carl Gustav and Queen Silvia-- met for a half-hour of private discussions.

Just one of a number of examples.

Jon