Protestant Sex

[fix]

Fix:

Yes, I understand. But I think the op is trying to say that the Catholic church seems overly rigorous in defining the do’s and don’ts of the morality of the marital embrace; where as it is not so rigorous in other areas of morality. Why is this so?

I do not think She is rigorous. She is faithful to God’s will in the matter.

What if we rephrase the question and ask why do so many want to act unjustly in regard to use of their sexual powers?

 

[Rico_S]

Straw man. The church does NOT require every occasion of sex to be procreative. .

Not a straw man. I am using the term procreative in the same way the church uses it…ordered toward procreation.

–Rico

 

[Rico_S]

I do not think She is rigorous. She is faithful to God’s will in the matter.

What if we rephrase the question and ask why do so many want to act unjustly in regard to use of their sexual powers?

Why do so many catholics have so much trouble with the teachings of the church on the marital embrace? Before you say “selfishness”, or “todays culture of all sex all the time” keep in mind we don’t see countless threads questioning the church’s stands on premarital sex, faithfulness in marriage (monogamy), homosexuality, divorce…etc.

–Rico

 

[1ke]

Yes, I understand. But I think the op is trying to say that the Catholic church seems overly rigorous in defining the do’s and don’ts of the morality of the marital embrace; where as it is not so rigorous in other areas of morality. Why is this so?

I agree that this seems to be the position of the OP.

However, I believe Church teaching is as rigorous in **all **of morality-- the Church has had to reiterate that abortion is murder, euthanasia is murder, withholding food and water is murder, in vitro and other forms of asexual reproduction are gravely immoral, going to Mass is obligatory, etc, just to name a few. And yet there are people who argue that abortion is not murder, euthanasia is “merciful,” in vitro is “compassionate”, and weekly Mass attendance is “inconvenient” and so on.

Pick a commandment, any commandment, and you will find those who think the Church’s teachings are too rigorous… because we are sinful creatures who want the path of least resistance, not the narrow path spoken of by Christ.

Wherever you have Church teaching that something is wrong, you will have those who want to do that thing and attempt to rationalize it.

Some might say to themselves, "OK, so stealing is wrong, but is fudging this deduction on my taxes really “stealing?” Or taking these pens and paper from the office supply cabinet? Or… whatever… Pick *any *sin and when someone wants to commit that sin you will find them trying to find a way to justify it.

I would say that the Church’s teachings are no more rigorous on sexual matters than any others.

People’s desire to rebel in this area may be higher, and certainly contemporary culture teaches all the things the Church teaches as gravely immoral as moral goods, or minimally moral neutrals. That is why it seems the Church is being more rigorous when she is simply teaching what is. Many people coming out of this culture have either never known these things to be wrong, or those brought up being taught they are wrong want to believe the culture who is telling them it is not wrong. Hence the confusion and hence the numerous questions.

But this is not new. Most of Paul’s writings deal with the serious sexual moral errors of his day. He devotes a lot of ink to these topics, the culture of his time was imploding economically and demographically via contraception, abortion and infanticide, homosexual sex, sexual orgies, and refusing to marry and raise a family. Rome of that day was remarkably similar to the time we are living in. The voice of the Church was the same as it is today-- calling people out of that lifestyle.

 

[fix]

Why do so many catholics have so much trouble with the teachings of the church on the marital embrace? Before you say “selfishness”, or “todays culture of all sex all the time” keep in mind we don’t see countless threads questioning the church’s stands on premarital sex, faithfulness in marriage (monogamy), homosexuality, divorce…etc.

–Rico

I see plenty of dissent in all areas of sexual morality. As they say all heresy begins below the belt. Is it really surprising?

 

[1ke]

we don’t see countless threads questioning the church’s stands on premarital sex, faithfulness in marriage (monogamy), homosexuality, divorce…etc.

Yes, we do.

 

[rpp]

If a sexual act within marriage is not ordered toward procreation than how does this differ from using someone to gratify your own sexual desire? Sounds like sex abuse to me.

Sexual acts outside of marriage are always gravely sinful. Marriage is between one man and one woman and is for life; re0marriage after divorce is not permitted, just as Christ said.

 

[Rico_S]

However, I believe Church teaching is as rigorous in **all **of morality-- the Church has had to reiterate that abortion is murder, euthanasia is murder, withholding food and water is murder, in vitro and other forms of asexual reproduction are gravely immoral, going to Mass is obligatory, etc, just to name a few. And yet there are people who argue that abortion is not murder, euthanasia is “merciful,” in vitro is “compassionate”, and weekly Mass attendance is “inconvenient” and so on.

I am not really saying that people don’t disagree with the church on these issues…that would be pretty silly. There are plenty of opponents of the church teachings that you mentioned, and I readily agree with you on that. I think that you don’t find a large section “practicing Catholics” (I am not saying perfect, super devout saintly Catholics, but the typical praciticing catholic…I hope that makes sense) that disagree with these issues (aside from invitro maybe). The typical catholic is not clamoring for leagalized abortion, nor are they saying that mass is not obligatory, they don’t think premarital sex is ok…however, there seems to be a significant number of catholics that don’t agree with the church’s teachings on the morality of the martial embrace.

I think there is evidence of that here on these forums b/c there are not lots of threads where practicing catholics arguing for abortion rights…or arguing that premarital sex is ok and the churhc is wrong…or that mass should be obligatory. But there are tons of threads on contraception in marriage…limits of the marital embrace…etc.

People’s desire to rebel in this area may be higher, and certainly contemporary culture teaches all the things the Church teaches as gravely immoral as moral goods, or minimally moral neutrals.

If this is the case, then why don’t we see the same disagreement from catholics on premarital sex…or sex outside of marriage…permenancy of marriage? Contemporary culture is opposed to this, but you don’t see many “practicing” catholics struglling with the church’s teachings on these things?

–Rico

 

[Rico_S]

If a sexual act within marriage is not ordered toward procreation than how does this differ from using someone to gratify your own sexual desire?
.

I can assure you that it is completely possible to enagage in a sexual act with my wife that is not ordered toward procreation as defined by the church, where neither me nor my wife are being used by the other.

I can also assure you that I can participate in a sexual act with my wife that is ordered toward procreation as defined by the church where I or my wife are using the other for or own sexual gratification.

-Rico

 

[1ke]

If this is the case, then why don’t we see the same disagreement from catholics on premarital sex…or sex outside of marriage…permenancy of marriage? Contemporary culture is opposed to this, but you don’t see many “practicing” catholics struglling with the church’s teachings on these things?

–Rico

I think we do.

The “typical” Catholic couple who approaches the Church for marriage is cohabiting, having sex, and using contraception. I guess you haven’t noticed the threads with things like, “Why won’t Father marry us just because we live together, that’s sooo unfair… whaaaa…”

Certainly, Catholics are struggling with all of these. There are numerous posts on here about how annulment is silly, divorce and remarriag should be allowed, cohabiting is mainstream, premarital sex should be allowed…

Yes, these topics definitely do come up and I would say that “practicing” Catholics embrace these ideas.

 

[fix]

I once heard someone from this site ask why no one questions the hypostatic union, but plenty question the sexual teachings.

IMO, part of the answer is that it is no big deal to Catholics to accept the hypostatic union, or virgin birth, or the Trinity. They do not see it as affecting how they live. But, they do have a problem with any of the sexual teachings because that does mean examining how we lead our lives and changing what we do.

 

[Rico_S]

I think we do.

The “typical” Catholic couple who approaches the Church for marriage is cohabiting, having sex, and using contraception. I guess you haven’t noticed the threads with things like, “Why won’t Father marry us just because we live together, that’s sooo unfair… whaaaa…”

Certainly, Catholics are struggling with all of these. There are numerous posts on here about how annulment is silly, divorce and remarriag should be allowed, cohabiting is mainstream, premarital sex should be allowed…

Yes, these topics definitely do come up and I would say that “practicing” Catholics embrace these ideas.

Well, I don’t want to turn this into an argument on who is considered a practicing Catholic… but cohabitating twenty somehting couple who is pissed that the priest won’t marry him is not in the same ball park as a married couple with 3 kids who go to catholic school, active in the parish, attend church regularly, but disagree with some of the church’s teachings. Obviously you disagee, so I can understand why you don’t think my point is salient.

–Rico

 

[1ke]

Well, I don’t want to turn this into an argument on who is considered a practicing Catholic… but cohabitating twenty somehting couple who is pissed that the priest won’t marry him is not in the same ball park as a married couple with 3 kids who go to catholic school, active in the parish, attend church regularly, but disagree with some of the church’s teachings. Obviously you disagee, so I can understand why you don’t think my point is salient.

–Rico

Yes, I do disagree. But, that’s why this is called a “discussion board.” If everyone agreed, there wouldn’t be much discussion.

I also put the twenty-something cohabitator and the couple with the kids you describe in the same category because both desire to bend the Church’s teachings to their own will instead of conform their will to Christ’s.

A couple who sends their kids to Catholic school, has three kids, supports the parish through ministries, etc, is all well and good. But, that does not give them license to sin. No amount of good works they do excuse the sins they commit.

 

[Rico_S]

I once heard someone from this site ask why no one questions the hypostatic union, but plenty question the sexual teachings.

IMO, part of the answer is that it is no big deal to Catholics to accept the hypostatic union, or virgin birth, or the Trinity. They do not see it as affecting how they live. But, they do have a problem with any of the sexual teachings because that does mean examining how we lead our lives and changing what we do.

This is completely relevent and a good point. However, there are many church teachings on morality that affect how we live our life but we don’t fight them on those…lying…adultery…alms giving…mass attendance… etc.

 

[Rico_S]

A couple who sends their kids to Catholic school, has three kids, supports the parish through ministries, etc, is all well and good. But, that does not give them license to sin. No amount of good works they do excuse the sins they commit.

What? I am not saying that…I am saying that there are tons of people in otherwise “good standing” that don’t agree that the church is right on this topic. My point was that these same people aren’t really in disagreement with the other things you are saying…so maybe there is something beyond “we are being selfish and trying to justify our sin”

If you cannot for a moment contemplate the church may be wrong, then I imagine it will be difficult to understand my point.

–Rico

 

[fix]

This is completely relevent and a good point. However, there are many church teachings on morality that affect how we live our life but we don’t fight them on those…lying…adultery…alms giving…mass attendance… etc.

Well, it is socially acceptable to favor contracepted sexual intercourse. It has been “medicalized” and is viewed as safe, modern, and logical.

The other things like lying are still seen as bad. Adultery is accepted by Catholics as much as non Catholics. People still think the Church is too rigid in not allowing divorce.

 

[fix]

If you cannot for a moment contemplate the church may be wrong, then I imagine it will be difficult to understand my point.

–Rico

I believe this is the heart of the matter. It always comes down to authority. If the Church is wrong then Christ is not the authority behind His Church.

 

[Rico_S]

It always comes down to authority.

Which in turn comes down to faith.

 

[Jude_Smith]

The Protestant churches you so admire in the area of sexuality taught the same thing the Catholic Church did about those commandments and the proper use of the sexual faculties until less than 70 years ago.

It is they who have broken with the truth, not they who have discovered it.

Absolutely! That last sentence sums it up. And look at where we have been going during those years. (Isn’t is more than 70? Didn’t the Anglicans rock the boat in 1930?) Has contraception led to happier, more stable marriages? Are families more solid, more respected? Is society in better shape?
Look. It’s difficult for us to have ideals that are hard to live up to, that require us constantly to work at being better than we are, but isn’t that the whole point?
Is there a limit to how far we can fall if we decide to stop trying to rise higher?
Anyway, while we can argue all day and longer, it does come down to the question of whether we can place our faith in Christ and His Church, or not.

 

[1ke]

If you cannot for a moment contemplate the church may be wrong, then I imagine it will be difficult to understand my point.

You are correct, I cannot for a moment contemplate that the Church may be wrong. She cannot be wrong.