Protestant "Sola Fide" is a mistake

  • Thread starter Thread starter angelusm
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

angelusm

Guest
I know that protestants got rid of some books of the Old Testament because they didn’t like them. I wonder if they also “deleted” James’s letter from the New Testament. It’s because it says that faith only (Sola Fide) is definitely not enough while protestants disagree with it. I’m really surprised they make mistakes so easily. Interesting, don’t you think?

14 How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?

15 If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on,

16 and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,’ without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?

17 In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

18 But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith.

19 You believe in the one God-that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear.

20 Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

22 So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did.

23 In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name ‘friend of God’.

24 You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified.

25 There is another example of the same kind: Rahab the prostitute, was she not justified by her deeds because she welcomed the messengers and showed them a different way to leave?

26 As a body without a spirit is dead, so is faith without deeds.
 
=angelusm;3015239]I know that protestants got rid of some books of the Old Testament because they didn’t like them. **I wonder if they also “deleted” James’s letter **from the New Testament.
Click to expand...
I checked and NO it is still in there.😃
 
Luther tried to delete James and Revelation, but his view did not prevail.
 
James is still there because it’s God’s word. The Apocrypha never was accepted as “God’s inspired word” by the Jews.

James is talking about those who give “lip service” to their faith but never live it out. It’s not talking about doing works to earn salvation.

James brings up Abraham, the father of those justified by faith alone. But if Abraham had been asked to sacrifice Isaac and told God “no” and didn’t do it…then his so-called faith would’ve been just wind and bluster.

Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble!
Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Pauls sums it all up in one statement in Acts

Act 26:19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
Act 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

You say you’re saved? Show it! Walk your talk, practice what you preach! That’s the message of James…not a works based salvation.
 
The key phrase here:

Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Also…

Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

*** Saying, “I believe” and doing nothing else is worthless.***

You cannot have one without the other. 🙂
 
angelusm said:
I know that protestants got rid of some books of the Old Testament because they didn’t like them. I wonder if they also “deleted” James’s letter from the New Testament. It’s because it says that faith only (Sola Fide) is definitely not enough while protestants disagree with it. I’m really surprised they make mistakes so easily. Interesting, don’t you think?

14 How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?

15 If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on,

16 and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,’ without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?

17 In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

18 But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith.

19 You believe in the one God-that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear.

20 Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

22 So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did.

23 In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name ‘friend of God’.

24 You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified.

25 There is another example of the same kind: Rahab the prostitute, was she not justified by her deeds because she welcomed the messengers and showed them a different way to leave?

26 As a body without a spirit is dead, so is faith without deeds.
Click to expand...
Indeed, faith without works is dead. Are you saved?
 
So, nothing you can do will help you. But, what you do can send you to hell. I don’t see this as logical. In Matthew, Jesus said that the sheep and the goats are separated based on works (feed the hungry, etc.). In Hebrews, each example Paul gives shows someone DOING something because of faith. It does not say “Noah had faith so he sat and waited for God.” In real world terms, doing things becuase of your faith helps make your faith stronger. Too many protestants see Catholics as believing the inverse of sola fide. we do not think it is works alone, or that faith is not important. It is faith working through love.
 
SolaFide said:
James is still there because it’s God’s word. The Apocrypha never was accepted as “God’s inspired word” by the Jews.
Click to expand...
The Apocryha was rejected by Jews at the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD. According to this Council they also rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Christians likewise continue to use the Deutrocanonical Books and affirm those books in the Council of Hippo, Council of Carthage, and were confirmed by the Pope.
 
jay29 said:
The key phrase here:

Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Also…

Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

*** Saying, “I believe” and doing nothing else is worthless.***

You cannot have one without the other. 🙂
Click to expand...
No, James is saying “I believe” and then not acting in accordance with your faith is worthless.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Hebrews 11 is full of people who acted on their faith. They weren’t saved by those acts, their faith in God merely allowed them to perform those acts.

Faith is the horse before the cart. Salvation is by faith. We PROVE our repentance by our works but we aren’t saved by them.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, **created in Christ Jesus for good works, **which God prepared beforehand **that we should walk in them. **

Walk in them not be saved by them.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
 
Matt 25:31-46

Jesus says heaven for those who do, hell for those who do not.
 
SolaFide said:
…
Click to expand...
The nature of Salvation is a most confusing subject since many believe that is a “one-time event” or that is only “in the past”. This is not what Christ taught. Salvation is a 3-dimensional reality with past, present, and, future components.
PAST
Rom 8:24:
For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?
Eph. 2:5-8:
even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
Present
1 Cor 1:8: He will keep you firm to the end, irreproachable on the day of our Lord Jesus (Christ).
2 Cor. 2:15:
For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
Future
Rom. 5:9-10:
How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.
Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.

Rom. 13:11:
And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed (first believed what?! This is St. Paul, a follower of Christ and he is saying that his salvation is not yet fulfilled…sorry Charlie, salvation is not purely “history” from one point in time onwards)

Look at what can convert a person:
John 10:38: But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in the Father.
Interesting how Jesus says we can come to know “that the Father is in me and I in the Father” by a acknowledging of what? Jesus as the Son of God…FIRST? No, by believing in His works FIRST then the faith of believing in the God-Man will naturally follow. Jesus is telling us something about the importance of works…be imitators of Him!

Gal 5:6:
***“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any avail, nor uncircumcision, but faith which works through charity.” (charity = Love)
“******faith *which works through charity” does NOT equal “faith alone”…by definition!
**We all know where the only place in the bible that is says “faith alone” and its in James 2:24

The real question is on what criteria is Jesus Christ going to Judge us on? (funny that I ask that because if you are “saved” in the fundamentalist, evengelical, born-again sense, you are already assured Heaven right? so whats the point of Judgment? )
 
Read Apocalypse chapters 2 and 3. Count the number of times Jesus says, “I know your works”. Further, let us get something very clear, faith is defined as an act of the will - it is an act of the intellect assenting to a truth which is beyond its grasp. People have this tendency to mix faith with works. This is not true. You can declare a theological truth but live like a pagan. You can believe that Jesus is God but deny His will. Or the opposite, a pagan can be doing humanitarian work, but not believe.

Here are bunch of Versus that say how critical our works (ie: our morality!) are in our salvation.
Faith and works are both gifts of grace.

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord … give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:27
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness … and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

Matthew 5:20
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 12:37
By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. … For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work.

Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
 
I’m going to point to the following:
“…continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” Phillipians 2:12

Ephesians 1:4 to 1:13 (referencing predestination - won’t restate for brevity)

Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son… And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

Romans 9:19-24 (I won’t restate it here. It’s the potter/clay analogy)

There are more of the predestination passages, but here’s my point. If God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, then faith and works are squarely in His hands. Thus, doesn’t our salvation and in fact our works depend solely upon God? If He moves our will, then I am only capable of doing a good work so long as He moves me to do so. I believe St. Augustine speaks of only Adam having free will (but I could be mistaken) which would suggest that this argument about the faith/works paradox is pointless. Because in the end, the discussion assumes free will which may be nonexistent.

I guess what I’m saying is that all sides may be wrong here because predestination trumps all. Or does it?

Erika
 
Mannyfit75 said:
The Apocryha was rejected by Jews at the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD. According to this Council they also rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Christians likewise continue to use the Deutrocanonical Books and affirm those books in the Council of Hippo, Council of Carthage, and were confirmed by the Pope.
Click to expand...
Cite please.
 
Sola, and any others, please explain how Matthew 25:31-46 fits into sola Fide. I had it explained once by a Lutherin minister, and it didn’t make sense to me then.
 
Catholics believe we are saved by the actions of Christ on the Cross and our original sin washed away through baptism. We have the faith in Christ that He has already saved us through His works.

“Faith alone” while a protestant belief is not very different than the Catholic understanding. While we are saved by our “faith” in Christ, or better put, we know that Christ died on the cross for our salvation, this is by no means complete. We do posses faith in the Love and Mercy of Christ but this faith is further reinforced by the “works” Christ performed and ultimately His sacrafice on the Cross, to say nbothing of His continued works. Faith and works hand in hand have led to our belief in our salvation.

Many non-believers continually ask for proof, even us who believe continually need our spirits and faith recharged by tangible evidence. This is human nature. While the apostles did have rock solid faith that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, the works He performed furthered that faith and His ultimate work, His sacrafice on the cross and ressurection demonstrated that faith in salvation fully.

We as Christians spread the news of salvation through our own faith and works as well. Faith by itself naturally comes with works for it is the natural progression and compliment of works. We are asked by Christ to “love others as I have loved you”. We have faith that our parents love us by that faith is reinforced by works and actions that our parents perform. Our belief in salvation is reinforced by our faith, which is justified by works, which are in turn justified again by faith. If we did not need faith and works to know we are saved, then Christ need not have died on the cross.
 
SolaFide said:
James is talking about those who give “lip service” to their faith but never live it out.
Click to expand...
Wow. That’s the Catholic position, and it’s not Sola Fide. Dynamic faith, proven by works. Your name, “Sola Fide” is contradictory to this. Typical made-up Protestant dichtonomy. 😃
 
Please forgive my impertinence, but I do not think these forums are conducive to this type of discussion. It is far to easy to be harsh in writing and forget that we are addressing people and not a computer.

I joined this forum to learn more about Catholicism and maybe even find some camraderie with others who care deeply about faith and spirituality. I am disappointed with much of what I read here however. I think we’re all better off reading the writings of our Church fathers and dealing with each other on a personal level. No one will be reached, nor will any issue be resolved in contentious discussions over an impersonal electronic medium.

Good luck to all of you.

Christine
 
Metaron said:
Wow. That’s the Catholic position, and it’s not Sola Fide. Dynamic faith, proven by works. Your name, “Sola Fide” is contradictory to this. Typical made-up Protestant dichtonomy. 😃
Click to expand...
A big AMEN to you. 😃

Lip service will NEVER, EVER get you into heaven by itself. You MUST do something about it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top