Protestant Songs at Mass

[MagdalenaRita]

I said that I personally find it creepy. The onus is on ME, not the chant. It’s my bad.

…because it’s what I knew growing up and during my teen years in the 1960s and early 1970s.

I think we forget there are personal tastes and different cultures people grow up with that affects what they like or dislike in music.
I know of a priest, not from America, so it could have been a cultural thing, who was bothered by the “I” songs. He felt that since we were not God we should not sing songs that put us in God’s place, so he didnt allow songs like “I am the Bread of Life” or “On Eagle’s Wings”.
Now every time I hear those songs or similar I think of what the priest said.

 

[Jen95]

Prodigal1984:

I’m sorry but how is Gregorian Chant, which came into existence in the middle ages, gets its name from Pope Saint Gregory the Great, and is about as Roman Catholic of music as one can really ask for… eastern mysticism?

Because eastern mystics “chant” during their cermonies, and so do various occult groups.

I’m sure that to knowledgeable people, the chants sound very different, but to me and others, the chants sound very similar.

So, just curious, if you were to listen briefly to these two examples of chant, they sound extremely similar to you? You couldn’t tell which one is Buddhist chant and which one is Gregorian chant?

 

[CTBcin]

I have to disagree here based on the definitions of Liturgical music. One of its aspects is that the Assembly joins in.

This would then rule out Polyphony completely as as liturgical music. I find it hard to believe that Palestrina Masses would fail to be liturgical music. Plus, Schola Choirs have been in use by the Church for centuries and are encouraged by the documents of the Church. These would also have to be ruled out as liturgical music. Yet Chant and polyphony are two of the Church’s most preferred options for the Liturgy. Hymnody is the least preferred option (but has become the most popular).

Could you post a link to where you got this definition from? I’m genuinely curious. I am not aware of the Church making such a definition in the relevant documents, such as Sacrosanctum Concilium and Musicam Sacram.

In fact, Musicam Sacram specifically defines sacred music as that which is created for divine worship (i.e. the Liturgy), and goes on to specifically call Gregorian Chant and polphony forms of Sacred Music. But polyphony cannot be sung by the assembly, only by a trained choir. So clearly there are some forms of liturgical music that the assembly doesn’t sing.

 

[Dougbro1]

On the other hand, while certain contemporary songs like “Good, Good Father” might be efficacious to some people and would work well at a youth conference or praise and worship session, I again don’t find it fitting for the Mass.

What would be your take on including it in, say, Youth Masses? Just out of curiosity. Not trying to be confrontational, or anything.

 

[Minks]

PetraG:

artistic goodness (beauty)

this is so subjective.

I can’t imagine a more appropriate song for Lent then the Negro Spiritual “Were you there”?

I’m not sure what he means by ‘universality’ in this context. I’ve only ever had one time where I was involved in choosing the music for a Mass and that was for a funeral. My family chose:

entrance: Morning has Broken
Offertory: I am the bread of life
Communion: Ave Maria/I was there to here your borning cry (this is a Lutheran hymn),
when Father was swinging the brazier over the coffin the organist softly played “When Irish Eyes are Smiling”
procession: Battle Hymn of the Republic

The priest reviewed the lyrics of the Lutheran hymn and gave his permission for us to use it.

The Mass was absolutely beautiful, so much so that two families asked to learn more about becoming Catholic and several people also said how moving everything.

@vsedriver

Thank you for telling us. I’m planning one now.

 

[Peeps]

So, just curious, if you were to listen briefly to these two examples of chant, they sound extremely similar to you? You couldn’t tell which one is Buddhist chant and which one is Gregorian chant?

Good examples.

My answer is, No, I would not be able to tell which is Gregorian and which is Buddhist.

They sound so similar. The Buddhists chant in a more baritone/bass register, while the Gregorian was more tenor, but it wasn’t at all obvious to me which was which.

In fact, I played them on top of each other (both chants at the same time), and it was amazing how well they went together. It basically sounded like a men’s chorus doing a chanted piece.

Chant is chant. It is amelodic (no discernible melody, just random tones) singing usually done by men. The chant from the Conan the Barbarian movies sounds very similar to the chants that I have heard in the Church.

One thing that might make a difference for me and explain why I am not opposed to the 50-year old contemporary hymns done in many OF Masses is that I listened to very little pop/rock music growing up. I was usually practicing the piano when I got home from school, and I didn’t have the money to buy “albums” or “45s”. I had a radio, but even back then, when I was not even a teenager yet, I preferred the talk shows–I still do, and I never, ever listen to music on the radio!

A few years ago, my husband was shocked that I had never heard of the group “Journey”, and couldn’t name one song that they did!

My mother listened to the radio, but also preferred the talk shows. And when our family watched TV, we watched shows like Ted Mack’s Amateur Hour and The Lawrence Welk Show. I never ever watched American Bandstand.

SO…my point is, I do not associate “rock” or “pop” sounding music with “worldliness.” I know that there are a lot of musicians and bands that recorded some very saccharine pop songs intended for young teenagers, and I know that other groups recorded rock songs that challenged traditional religion. I agree that there were rock/pop songs that probably did some harm.

But I didn’t listen to enough of it so that when I hear a “pop” type song in church, I immediately think of teenage morality failings.

I just hear a nice song about Jesus and His love for us.

As another poster said earlier, what you find “reverent” depends on what you grew up with. (And I said that, too!)

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

This would then rule out Polyphony completely as as liturgical music.

In what way? Are you saying a hymn could not consist of parts? I am unsure what you mean in this context. If you mean parts, then the Assembly can pick up the Melody, along with the Choir melody members, a few choir members could pick up descant on a few selected lines, and the alto also. We do it all the time, it works quite well. Especially in the great Amen and the Gospel Acclamation.

This is not my own personal opinion of what constitutes Liturgical music. Inculturation is important as well. The key is full and active participation.

Mind if I pm you regarding links

 

[Dlee]

This past weekend, we sang Lord I Lift Your Name on High when the priest walked down the aisle at the beginning of Mass (behind the person carrying the Gospel.) It was difficult for me because it reminded me of my protestant days and the music which was always played to hype us up - we called them praise choruses. It just seemed out of place (and it is in Gather #3).

 

[CTBcin]

Mind if I pm you regarding links

Yeah, go ahead. I’m genuinely curious to read them.

 

[ziapueblo]

It’s tragic. So many beautiful hymns can still be found in the breviary but are not chanted or sung.

ZP

 

[mikie11b]

We did “Your Grace is enough” while the gifts were being brought down.

 

[pnewton]

The topic of this thread is are Protestant Songs ok at Mass, in specifics the song ‘Good good Father’ . Is it liturgical? No, based on the definitions provided. What do you think? Why would it be liturgical or not?

Maybe, maybe not. Such decision have to be made by those who know the parish, with the direction of the bishop who has the canonical authority to implement the liturgy. There is no good way to know what is best over the internet, when we know nothing of the parish in question.

 

[Peeps]

Maybe, maybe not. Such decision have to be made by those who know the parish, with the direction of the bishop who has the canonical authority to implement the liturgy. There is no good way to know what is best over the internet, when we know nothing of the parish in question.

Really good point, and it brings to mind the fact that the BISHOP, the territorial authority, is given the responsibility to allow or disallow Mass music. The bishop has surely studied all the documents about the Holy Mass, as well as the Bible, and he has the Holy Spirit, Who helps him to recall and correctly interpret the Scriptures and the many documents that he must read, understand, and implement in his diocese.

You’re right–bishops know their diocese, and they know their priests, and the individual parishes, and in all likelihood, they know about the music/liturgy directors in the parishes. They know whether parishes have the musical chops to attempt learning the traditional music of the Church, and more importantly, they know whether a certain " “style” of music is the best choice for any given parish. This will vary from parish to parish, and from diocese to diocese, and the bishop knows the reasons for the variations in parish “readiness.”

And of course, the bishops know how much money is available to pay for music and musicians in his parishes.

I think we need to respect our God-appointed bishops and their authority, and stop nattering over their acceptance of “modern” Mass music in many parishes in the U.S.

 

[Jen95]

Why, if I’m Joe Catholic, do I have to be deprived of liturgical music at a particular parish, but if I were to go to a different parish, I maybe could get decent liturgical music? What would determine which parish gets decent liturgical music or not? Is it based on the average income in a parish? Average educational level? Presence or absence of immigrants? History of a particular parish? Please fill us in! @Peeps @pnewton

 

[CilladeRoma]

I live in a community that has a world renowned school of music. We are lucky that some of the students offer their services for fairly little compensation, while they are students.
But, the numbers are small, and they are usually not Catholic, so their knowledge is limited. Most parishes I know have very little money to spend on music directors/musicians and rely on volunteers, and when it comes to having music or not, most priests I know are grateful for whatever help they get.
Adding to the problem is the lack of even basic musical education in grammar and middle school. When children are not exposed to music education, what do we expect?

 

[pnewton]

What would determine which parish gets decent liturgical music or not? Is it based on the average income in a parish?

The key here is in your word “decent”. If you mean quality, then each parish should strive to bring the best, and each musician should strive to do his or her best. If you mean music you like, I think that is an argument for a variety of music, so that everyone at least gets some that appeals to him. If you mean music that is best suited for that liturgy, then you are simply begging the question. What is best suited varies from parish to parish. It would be like going to a Spanish language Mass and the music not being in English, or Latin.

In my parish, for example, traditional Catholics are very few, with English-speaking cradle Catholics also being a minority. We are mostly immigrant and converts from various Protestant religions. We are also mostly blue-collar. There is a southern, evangelical culture, and I would disagree with any one who said otherwise. It is in our movies, our interactions, and our music. It is every bit a legitimate culture as in any country. To have a European style Mass would not make much sense. Therefore, we use mostly hymns, a little praise, and some traditional chant. It is what is right for our parish.

 

[Jen95]

Well how is it that everyone had “European style Mass” for centuries and the Church converted and educated the world? They had “European style Mass” in the south before and it helped produce Flannery O’Connor, Walker Percy, et al.
https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Catholic-Writers-Invention-American/dp/0807150908

 

[gracepoole]

I live in a community that has a world renowned school of music. We are lucky that some of the students offer their services for fairly little compensation, while they are students.
But, the numbers are small, and they are usually not Catholic, so their knowledge is limited. Most parishes I know have very little money to spend on music directors/musicians and rely on volunteers, and when it comes to having music or not, most priests I know are grateful for whatever help they get.
Adding to the problem is the lack of even basic musical education in grammar and middle school. When children are not exposed to music education, what do we expect?

I know a recently retired deacon in your community who was able to secure the services of a top notch professor of music from the school you’re referencing. He was incredibly impressive and brought the music of the parish to an entirely new level. And what did the deacon hear? Complaint after complaint that no one was singing “On Eagle’s Wings” anymore. It’s easy to claim that parishes don’t have access to great musicians. But the reality is that often, older parishioners are hellbent on keeping things status quo and refuse to allow for changes.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Why, if I’m Joe Catholic, do I have to be deprived of liturgical music at a particular parish, but if I were to go to a different parish, I maybe could get decent liturgical music? What would determine which parish gets decent liturgical music or not? Is it based on the average income in a parish? Average educational level? Presence or absence of immigrants? History of a particular parish? Please fill us in! @Peeps @pnewton

Jen I am in Australia. Our Choirs and Music Ministries are volunteer. Very few get paid. It should be remembered that Liturgical Music is not a performance. Music ministry is there to lead the Assembly/Congregation in singing and offering praise to God this way. That being said, one of the points is that music should have a component of inculturation in each Parish.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Complaint after complaint that no one was singing “On Eagle’s Wings” anymore. It’s easy to claim that parishes don’t have access to great musicians. But the reality is that often, older parishioners are hellbent on keeping things status quo and refuse to allow for changes.

I wonder, how did this come about?
Did the “new” music director come in and take over, without any (name removed by moderator)ut from the parish?

This happened at my old parish. A new priest came, hired a new music director after firing the Faith formation secretary and the part time maintenance person, who then “dismissed” all the musicians who had led the music ministry, on a volunteer basis, for 25 years.

Needless to say, there was lots of yelling, anger and tears. The Pastor and the MD would not listen, claimed they had the Church on their side and did away with hymns for the most part. The antiphons are chanted, and there is a ressional hymn.

Now, some may laud the Pastor, but he tore this parish apart. Many people left, and while some have come because of the musical change, their numbers do not equal those that left, and their contributions are not making up for the lost income.
There are always two sides to a story, am3d usually when music is involved, someone has a “my way or the highway” attitude.