Protestant soteriology

[Peter_J]

This quote is from the thread “Why do Protestants think they know Catholicism, but they don’t really know about it?” (which I don’t regard as a very good title for a thread – but don’t get me started on that):

sambos671:

I guess I’ll be fair to the op. The discussion is why do protestants say they understand the catholic faith and then claim its a works based religion?

Its a fair question because just about every evangelical Christian you come across will say that. The problem with communication between a Catholic and a Protestant are words mean different things to both groups. I guess this is a thread questioning why Protestants insist that Catholics is a works based system of faith.

It really comes down to Soteriology and how its understood by both groups. I’ll tie down the protestant postion though in reality this is difficult because there are so many views on soteriology by protestants but I’ll make the basic argument. Luther started the premise of Protestant theology: Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. This is the term you will often hear from protestants. “you can only be saved through faith alone by scriptures alone.” The reality is that protestant believe that there is a point in which a person “decides to follow Jesus and believe in him” and at that point a transformation occures. That prerson becomes “born again” and is filled with the spirit (admitadly when this spirit filling occurs is up to debate amount several protestant groups) and is a new man and will follow Christ from that point. Many believe that at this point their salvation is assured and it heaven for them. However, every protestant will point to that moment when tthey were “saved”. They are affiremed by their churches that works will not assist them entrance into heaven. So when they meet a typical Catholic they will ask “are you saved?” Well from the Catholic perspective they are working on their salvation in the hopes of eternal life. The protestant misunderstands what the Catholic is talking about (as even many Catholics themselves misunderstand their own beliefs on the matter) and assumed the person has never been “saved” or “born again”. The truth is that there is a miscommunication at this point for a Catholic perspective is that Salvation is not a point in time event but a package that relates to many things. First of all for a Catholic Salvation is not by faith alone but by the grace of God. An event that takes place long before baptism and doesn’t end until heaven is achieved. For a Catholic the sacrament of Baptism is a coventant based issue that when a person is baptised a grace is given for the believer to continue in the teaching and learning of Jesus Christ through his instument the Church. The subsiquent sacraments are grace given to empower the believer to continue in faithfulness and in sanctification through out their lives becoming more like Christ until the race is won and the person acheives Christ in Heaven. In short for the Catholic Salvation is not just the point at which the beleiver is justified but includes the life long sanctification and grace that will end in the great reward. So a Protestant will say at this point I am saved a Catholics will say I’m working out my salvation with fear and trembeling. The real dispute is this Protestant speak: Are you saved? (are you justified?) Catholic speak: I am working out my salvation (justification, which in the protestant mind they are saved at this point, and sanctification, the continuing work of salvation) The catholic does not think they are saved by their works but that works are the evidence of the continuing salvation they are experiencing. I hope I explained that well. Sometimes words gets in the way.

sambos671,

I think you do a very good job here explaining the break-down of communication between Catholics and Protestants vis-à-vis Soteriology.

The one thing I would point out is that I think the way you mention Martin Luther could be misleading – what you describe is (I believe) a more “Evangelical” soteriology, which Lutherans would disagree with about as much as Catholics would. (I don’t claim to be an expert on the differences among Protestants denominations, so I hope someone more knowledgeable than myself will comment.)

 

[aileenve]

Lutherans do not believe in the “saved” doctrine any more than a Catholic does. Lutherans do belive what Christ said “Go into all the world preaching the Gospel and baptising in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” I don’ t think the Evangelicals think baptism saves you…

 

[Our_Refuge]

I have had protestants tell me that they can commit adultery and still be saved because they have accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. Some do not believe that they can lose their salvation.
But where is this in the BIble? Protestants hold that the bible holds all truth, it is all that is necessary yet they ignore what it actually says.

Romans 11:22 “ Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Romans 2:5-8 “ But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Matt. 7:21-23 “Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Hebrews 12:14 “ Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness **without which **no one will see the Lord.”

Matthew 19:16-23 “ And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

 

[JonNC]

sambos671,

I think you do a very good job here explaining the break-down of communication between Catholics and Protestants vis-à-vis Soteriology.

The one thing I would point out is that I think the way you mention Martin Luther could be misleading – what you describe is (I believe) a more “Evangelical” soteriology, which Lutherans would disagree with about as much as Catholics would. (I don’t claim to be an expert on the differences among Protestants denominations, so I hope someone more knowledgeable than myself will comment.)

Well, Peter, you are correct about this. Sambos671 uses the phrase “you can only be saved through faith alone by scriptures alone.” Never heard this before in my life. The scriptures don’t save anyone. Lutherans would say we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone by Christ alone.

There’s a lot of people here smarter than me, but I’ve never viewed the term sola scriptura as relating to soteriology. To me, it relates to doctrine.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I have had protestants tell me that they can commit adultery and still be saved because they have accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. Some do not believe that they can lose their salvation.But where is this in the BIble? Protestants hold that the bible holds all truth, it is all that is necessary yet they ignore what it actually says.
"

Thanks O R, for stating your response this way(using the word “some”).
As you can tell by my sig., that’s not the way Lutherans believe.
Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Sambos671 uses the phrase “you can only be saved through faith alone by scriptures alone.” Never heard this before in my life. The scriptures don’t save anyone. Lutherans would say we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone by Christ alone.

I noticed that too – I figured it was just a typo.

 

[ralphinal]

Those two solas do not go together like that. Sola fide is correct, saved by faith alone. Sola scriptura is only the Bible is the rule of doctrine (the word used is faith, but it means something different here than in sola fide, so I changed it). Sola gratia goes with sola fide. Saved by grace through faith is the correct Protestant teaching.

Now how do I know all that heretical stuff?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Those two solas do not go together like that. Sola fide is correct, saved by faith alone. Sola scriptura is only the Bible is the rule of doctrine (the word used is faith, but it means something different here than in sola fide, so I changed it). Sola gratia goes with sola fide. Saved by grace through faith is the correct Protestant teaching.

Now how do I know all that heretical stuff?

Because you’re a Lutheran trapped in Erasmus’ body.

 

[ralphinal]

Because you’re a Lutheran trapped in Erasmus’ body.

Surely you could have done better than Erasmus…

Actually, I think you taught me how those go together. I used to think sola fida and sola gratia were opposed. I figured some drunk German goofed it up.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Surely you could have done better than Erasmus…

John Eck, then?

Actually, I think you taught me how those go together. I used to think sola fida and sola gratia were opposed. I figured some drunk German goofed it up.

Pfft, drunk German…utter redundancy.

I did? You mean I accomplished something here other than successfully irritating a Calvinist? haha

 

[Ghosty]

I would only add that in the Catholic Faith works are much, much more than just a sign that we’re being saved. Our work with Grace absolutely contributes to our Sanctification and growth in God. It is not just a sign, it’s our working with and in God; works can’t be detached from the living Grace without seriously distorting Catholic belief. Obviously our works can only be done with Grace, the abiding Grace present in our souls as well as God impelling us to do His work, but works certainly come from us as well, and they are part and parcel with Sanctity.

I think we need to be careful about going too far in adopting Protestant language to describe our beliefs. The moment we start denying that our works in Grace directly contribute to our increasing Sanctification is the moment we slide into heretical thinking.

Peace and God bless!

 

[JonNC]

Pfft, drunk German…utter redundancy.

Hick*@ I represent that remark!

 

[JonNC]

I would only add that in the Catholic Faith works are much, much more than just a sign that we’re being saved. Our work with Grace absolutely contributes to our Sanctification and growth in God. It is not just a sign, it’s our working with and in God; works can’t be detached from the living Grace without seriously distorting Catholic belief. Obviously our works can only be done with Grace, the abiding Grace present in our souls as well as God impelling us to do His work, but works certainly come from us as well, and they are part and parcel with Sanctity.
I think we need to be careful about going too far in adopting Protestant language to describe our beliefs. The moment we start denying that our works in Grace directly contribute to our increasing Sanctification is the moment we slide into heretical thinking.

Peace and God bless!

Actually, I agree with the notion that works are more than just a sign. And I agree that works are part of our sanctification, just not part of justification. And I agree with the bolded part with the caveat that good works only come from us because we allow the HS to work them through us. We take no merit in them, as they are His works.

Jon

 

[Ghosty]

Actually, I agree with the notion that works are more than just a sign. And I agree that works are part of our sanctification, just not part of justification. And I agree with the bolded part with the caveat that good works only come from us because we allow the HS to work them through us. We take no merit in them, as they are His works.

Jon

It’s not just the Holy Spirit working, however, it’s us too. Since we share in the Divine Nature, we do the work of the Divine Nature. It’s not as if we are merely an instrument or conduit of the Holy Spirit.

Since we have the Divine Life, we live it, and living it comes out in works. It’s not apart from God, since it is Grace/Divine Life and the Holy Spirit that allow us to do them at all, but it is also not apart from us and our work. If we don’t ourselves do the work of Divine Life, then we don’t truly have the Divine Life, and that is a heretical notion.

I don’t know if you are saying that we don’t do these Holy works or not, I’m just clarifying my point.

Peace and God bless!

 

[JonNC]

It’s not just the Holy Spirit working, however, it’s us too. Since we share in the Divine Nature, we do the work of the Divine Nature. It’s not as if we are merely an instrument or conduit of the Holy Spirit.

Since we have the Divine Life, we live it, and living it comes out in works. It’s not apart from God, since it is Grace/Divine Life and the Holy Spirit that allow us to do them at all, but it is also not apart from us and our work. If we don’t ourselves do the work of Divine Life, then we don’t truly have the Divine Life, and that is a heretical notion.

I don’t know if you are saying that we don’t do these Holy works or not, I’m just clarifying my point.

Peace and God bless!

Catholics say we cooperate with the HS, and that’s ok so long as we realize that we are incapable of even that without grace. So, yes, we are doing the work of the HS. I’m just careful to say that I deserve credit only insofar as the spirit leads me to those good works.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Catholics say we cooperate with the HS, and that’s ok so long as we realize that we are incapable of even that without grace. So, yes, we are doing the work of the HS. I’m just careful to say that I deserve credit only insofar as the spirit leads me to those good works.

Jon

Not that anyone asked, but …

From the document, Salvation: Grace, Justification and Synergy, from a 1998 Lutheran-Orthodox dialogue:

1. Both Lutherans and Orthodox teach that divine grace operates universally and that God freely grants grace to all human beings. God’s saving grace does not operate by necessity or in an irresistible manner, since human beings can reject it. Regarding the way in which salvation is appropriated by the believers, Lutherans, by teaching that justification and salvation are by grace alone through faith (sola gratia, sola fide), stress the absolute priority of divine grace in salvation. When they speak about saving faith they do not think of the dead faith which even the demons have (cf. James 2:19), but the faith which Abraham showed and which was reckoned to him as righteousness (cf. Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3,9). The Orthodox also affirm the absolute priority of divine grace. They underline that it is God’s grace which enables our human will to conform to the divine will (cf. Phil 2:13) in the steps of Jesus praying, “not as I will but as You will” (Matt. 26:39), so that we may work out our salvation in fear and trembling (cf. Phil. 2:12). This is what the Orthodox mean by “synergy” (working together) of divine grace and the human will of the believer in the appropriation of the divine life in Christ. The understanding of synergy in salvation is helped by the fact that the human will in the one person of Christ was not abolished when the human nature was united in Him with the divine nature, according to the Christological decisions of the Ecumenical Councils. While Lutherans do not use the concept of synergy, they recognize the personal responsibility of the human being in the acceptance or refusal of divine grace through faith, and in the growth of faith and obedience to God. Lutherans and Orthodox both understand good works as the fruits and manifestations of the believer’s faith and not as a means of salvation.

 

[JonNC]

Not that anyone asked, but …

From the document, Salvation: Grace, Justification and Synergy, from a 1998 Lutheran-Orthodox dialogue:

 

[Reformed]

I think we need to be careful about going too far in adopting Protestant language to describe our beliefs. The moment we start denying that our works in Grace directly contribute to our increasing Sanctification is the moment we slide into heretical thinking.

Peace and God bless!

Your posting caught my attention. How do you personally understanding the difference between the doctrine of justification and sanctification? I too believe salvation is a process. Saving faith is also a transforming grace. If a person claims to have been justified, but progressive transformation does not happen, that person has a dead faith (James 2) which did not come from God. God’s grace is always effectual to accomplish what He intended,because nothing is impossible with God. How great and perfect is the gift of salvation?

Philippians 1:6

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

James 1

Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[sambos671]

This quote is from the thread “Why do Protestants think they know Catholicism, but they don’t really know about it?” (which I don’t regard as a very good title for a thread – but don’t get me started on that):

sambos671,

I think you do a very good job here explaining the break-down of communication between Catholics and Protestants vis-à-vis Soteriology.

The one thing I would point out is that I think the way you mention Martin Luther could be misleading – what you describe is (I believe) a more “Evangelical” soteriology, which Lutherans would disagree with about as much as Catholics would. (I don’t claim to be an expert on the differences among Protestants denominations, so I hope someone more knowledgeable than myself will comment.)

Thank you for your compliment. The problem with me is two fold. 1. I’m just a regular guy with limited knowledge of what is going on. I’ve never been to seminary. Nor have I any real theological background both by undergrad and grad work were in business not theology. So I’m an armchair theologian and half the time I’m not informed. 2. The topic I tried to cover is so vast that I’m unable to do it based on pont one and that I purposely chose an evangelistic perspective since that covers more ground than trying to differentiate the Soterioligy of the Lutherans, Reformed, Evangelical, and Fundlementalist. And in actuality the list is greater than this but again refer to point 1.

 

[Ghosty]

Your posting caught my attention. How do you personally understanding the difference between the doctrine of justification and sanctification?

I understand justification to the cleansing of sin and the restoring of balance to the human. Sanctification is part of justification, in that the cleansing of sin and the balancing occur by the Sanctifying power of God, but Justification refers specifically to that point where the change begins.

To use an analogy, Justification is the birth, and Sanctification is the life. We are born and therefore live, but our lives continue to grow and act, going beyond mere birth. In Justification we are both restored and equipped with the Divine Nature, and Sanctification is the restoration, the Life, and the continuing growth and development of that Life. Like natural life, however, spiritual life requires work and movement, so Holy work is like the life-process of this Sanctity; it is living the Life we’ve been given, and therefore much more than merely a sign that we have the life. Me walking and eating and enjoying a sunset are not merely signs of me having life (though obviously if I’m doing these things I do have life, and in that sense they are signs), they are me living.

Hope that helps!

Peace and God bless!