Protestant souls

[QNDNNDQDCE]

In the Kaddish there is no mention of death or the departed. The prayer is basically a glorification of G-d and it is meant to bring a measure of peace to the family of the deceased. By custom, it is recited for eleven months for a parent and one month for a spouse, sibling, or child. However, it is both permissible and desirable to pray the Kaddish for those whose soul has passed on because it means that the soul of the departed must be worthy of G-d’s blessings to have inspired such faith and devotion in their family even in the midst of great loss.

There is a distinction between the explicit text of the prayer and its usage, although I think the text broadly speaking would apply to souls in the Jewish equivalent of purgatory. Regarding its usage, the Jewish Encyclopedia has some discussion about the Kaddish and the state of the dead.

In the course of time the power of redeeming the dead from the sufferings of Gehenna came to be ascribed, by some, to the recitation of the Ḳaddish.

…

In “Otiyyot de-R. 'Aḳiba,” a work of the geonic time, it is said, under the letter “zayin,” that “at the time of the Messiah God shall sit in paradise and deliver a discourse on the new Torah before the assembly of the pious and the angelic hosts, and that at the close of the discourse Zerubbabel shall rise and recite the Ḳaddish with a voice reaching from one end of the world to the other; to which all mankind will respond ‘Amen.’ All souls of Jews and Gentiles in Gehenna will respond with ‘Amen,’ so that God’s mercy will be awakened and He will give the keys of Gehenna to Michael and Gabriel, the archangels, saying: ‘Open the gates, that a righteous nation which observeth the faith may enter’ [Isa. xxvi. 2, “shomer emumim” being explained as “one that sayeth ‘Amen’”]. Then the 40,000 gates of Gehenna shall open, and all the redeemed of Gehenna, the wicked ones of Israel, and the righteous of the Gentiles shall be ushered into paradise.” The following legend is later: Akiba met a spirit in the guise of a man carrying wood; the latter told Akiba that the wood was for the fire in Gehenna, in which he was burned daily in punishment for having maltreated the poor while tax-collector, and that he would be released from his awful torture if he had a son to recite the Bareku and the Ḳaddish before a worshiping assembly that would respond with the praise of God’s name. On learning that the manhad utterly neglected his son, Akiba cared for and educated the youth, so that one day he stood in the assembly and recited the Bareku and the Ḳaddish and released his father from Gehenna (Masseket Kallah, ed. Coronel, pp. 4b, 19b; Isaac of Vienna, “Or Zarua’,” ed. Jitomir, ii. 11; Tanna debe Eliyahu Zuṭa xvii., where “R. Johanan b. Zakkai” occurs instead of “R. Akiba”; “Menorat ha-Ma’or,” i. 1, 1, 1; Manasseh ben Israel, “Nishmat Ḥayyim,” ii. 27; Baḥya ben Asher, commentary on Shofeṭim, at end; comp. Testament of Abraham, A. xiv.).

The idea that a son or grandson’s piety may exert a redeeming influence in behalf of a departed father or grandfather is expressed also in Sanh. 104a; Gen. R. lxiii.; Tanna debe Eliyahu R. xvii.; Tanna debe Eliyahu Zuṭa xii.; see also “Sefer Ḥasidim,” ed. Wiztinetzki, No. 32. In order to redeem the soul of the parents from the torture of Gehenna which is supposed to last twelve months ('Eduy. ii. 10; R. H. 17a), the Ḳaddish was formerly recited by the son during the whole year (Kol Bo cxiv.). Later, this period was reduced to eleven months, as it was considered unworthy of the son to entertain such views of the demerit of his parents (Shulḥan ‘Aruk, Yoreh De’ah, 376, 4, Isserles’ gloss; see Jahrzeit). The Ḳaddish is recited also on the Jahrzeit. The custom of the mourners reciting the Ḳaddish in unison is approved by Jacob Emden, in his “Siddur,” and that they should recite it together with the reader is recommended by Ẓebi Hirsch Ḥayot, in “Minḥat Ḳena’ot,” vii. 1. That the daughter, where there is no son, may recite the Ḳaddish was decided by a contemporary of Jair Ḥayyim Bacharach, though it was not approved by the latter (Responsa, No. 123; “Leḥem ha-Panim,” p. 376). A stranger, also, may recite the Ḳaddish for the benefit of the dead (Joseph Caro, in “Bet Yosef” to Yoreh De’ah, l.c.).
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9110-kaddish

 

[Kal2012]

I pray for my deceased Protestant relatives too.

 

[Jennie1964]

I don’t really understand purgatory. It says "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That doesn’t sound like purgatory to me. I’m trying to understand it as a Protestant. I’ve been studying Catholic doctrine, but I have a hard time making that swim across the Tiber on certain issues. There are a few rapids, or rocks, or something that get me hung up in those particular waters. |

But thank you, and if you would, could you pray for my father, Thomas; my dear friend who was murdered by her husband, a lovely faithful Protestant woman named Valerie; and my little granddaughter, Temia, who died of SIDS a little over a year ago. God bless you!

 

[McCartney]

I don’t really understand purgatory. It says "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That doesn’t sound like purgatory to me. I’m trying to understand it as a Protestant. I’ve been studying Catholic doctrine, but I have a hard time making that swim across the Tiber on certain issues. There are a few rapids, or rocks, or something that get me hung up in those particular waters. |

But thank you, and if you would, could you pray for my father, Thomas; my dear friend who was murdered by her husband, a lovely faithful Protestant woman named Valerie; and my little granddaughter, Temia, who died of SIDS a little over a year ago. God bless you!

A special prayer for all of them tonight.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Did you know that the Bible never says, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?” You are most likely thinking of 2 Corinthians 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Read the entirety of the chapter and you will see that your quote is not present anywhere. It is a phantom verse like “the lion shall lay down with the lamb.” It is close to what Scripture says but not something it actually says.

Your phantom verse is problematic if taken naively to the letter. Presumably, “to be present with the Lord” means to be in heaven. Being in heaven and being absent from the body cannot be equated because after the Resurrection, we will be in heaven, but we will also be in our bodies. Moreover, being in heaven isn’t even a necessary consequence of being absent from the body, since some are absent from the body but in hell.

In my opinion, this verse proves that the souls of the just will be in heaven before the Resurrection (thoroughly refuting soul sleep), since it teaches that souls will be present from the Lord when they are absent from the body. However, it does not deny the doctrine of purgatory.

I will pray that your friends will enter into their “house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”

Not in particular an intermediate state/place, but we certainly recognize the cleansing that takes place prior to entry to Heaven. Nevertheless, our confessions clearly allow for prayers for the dead.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Jon

Hello, Jon. I am glad to see progress at reconciling Catholic theology with the theology that grew out of the Lutheran Reformation. However, I am not sure that prayer for the dead is compatible with the Lutheran Confessions as they currently stand. The chief passage I have in mind is the section on the mass from the Smalcald Articles, the entirety of which I excerpted in another thread recently.

In addition to all this , this dragon’s tail, * the Mass, has begotten a numerous vermin-brood of manifold idolatries. First, purgatory. Here they carried their trade into purgatory by masses for souls, and vigils, and weekly, monthly, and yearly celebrations of obsequies, and finally by the Common Week and All Souls’ Day, by soul-baths so that the Mass is used almost alone for the dead, although Christ has instituted the Sacrament alone for the living. Therefore purgatory, and every solemnity, rite, and commerce connected with it, is to be regarded as nothing but a specter of the devil. For it conflicts with the chief article [which teaches] that only Christ, and not the works of men, are to help [set free] souls. Not to mention the fact that nothing has been [divinely] commanded or enjoined upon us concerning the dead. Therefore all this may be safely omitted, even if it were no error and idolatry. (Smalcald Articles 2.2.11-12)

Dr. Luther here says that purgatory here is a “specter of the devil” and implies that it is also an “error and idolatry.” It appears from the context that this is not just a matter of the connection between doctrine of purgatory and the Catholic practices associated with it, but with the very idea of purgatory and prayer for the dead, since he says that the proposition that “the works of men [viz. their prayers] are to help set free souls” is contrary to “the chief doctrine,” i.e. justification by faith alone. I do not see how you can say your confessions clearly allow for prayers for the dead when your confessions explicitly state that praying for the dead is a denial of sola fide. Do you have any comments? Is this section merely adiaphora and not binding?*

 

[JonNC]

Hello, Jon. I am glad to see progress at reconciling Catholic theology with the theology that grew out of the Lutheran Reformation. However, I am not sure that prayer for the dead is compatible with the Lutheran Confessions as they currently stand. The chief passage I have in mind is the section on the mass from the Smalcald Articles, the entirety of which I excerpted in another thread recently.

In addition to all this , this dragon’s tail, * the Mass, has begotten a numerous vermin-brood of manifold idolatries. First, purgatory. Here they carried their trade into purgatory by masses for souls, and vigils, and weekly, monthly, and yearly celebrations of obsequies, and finally by the Common Week and All Souls’ Day, by soul-baths so that the Mass is used almost alone for the dead, although Christ has instituted the Sacrament alone for the living. Therefore purgatory, and every solemnity, rite, and commerce connected with it, is to be regarded as nothing but a specter of the devil. For it conflicts with the chief article [which teaches] that only Christ, and not the works of men, are to help [set free] souls. Not to mention the fact that nothing has been [divinely] commanded or enjoined upon us concerning the dead. Therefore all this may be safely omitted, even if it were no error and idolatry. (Smalcald Articles 2.2.11-12)

Dr. Luther here says that purgatory here is a “specter of the devil” and implies that it is also an “error and idolatry.” It appears from the context that this is not just a matter of the connection between doctrine of purgatory and the Catholic practices associated with it, but with the very idea of purgatory and prayer for the dead, since he says that the proposition that “the works of men [viz. their prayers] are to help set free souls” is contrary to “the chief doctrine,” i.e. justification by faith alone. I do not see how you can say your confessions clearly allow for prayers for the dead when your confessions explicitly state that praying for the dead is a denial of sola fide*. Do you have any comments? Is this section merely adiaphora and not binding?

Hi QN,
The document I linked above goes into great detail regarding all of this. And BTW, the LCMS is a signator. Starting at paragraph 179, it lays out the Lutheran historical view, with a focus on Smalcald.
I suggest reading from paragraph 157, but here is the conclusion of the section.

Common Affirmations

 

[benhur]

I just had an idea and have started putting it into action.

Protestants (most) do not pray for the dead. They do not believe in Purgatory. Many of their relatives’ souls will be burning in Purgatory with no one to pray for them. I have started to specifically pray for the souls of Protestants in Purgatory.

Yes, thank you, but more for your good compassionate heart and thoughtfulness. Hopefully the intent is not to make a point. Personally, the prayers are in vain, only because there is no purgatory from my view. Now, may you pray for protestants that are still “here” as may I pray for Catholics that are still "here’, on this side of life. Something we can all universally agree on.

 

[benhur]

Wouldn’t the gravity of the sins of the deceased determine how long they spend in Purgatory, and, of course, ultimately G-d’s mercy and justice? IOW even if no one prays for Protestants, why would many of them necessarily spend a long time in Purgatory?

BTW, Jews believe in a version of Purgatory, which lasts no more than one year. And they, like Catholics, pray for the deceased.

What is the intention of the prayer ? Is it a type of well wishing/remembrance ? Is it to diminish the suffering or the length of time there ? Is it to try to get G-d to shorten the time or suffering? Is it to add to the grace bank that G-d can draw from to avail the suffering soul ? What is the purpose of your purgatory ? To pray “for” suggests the expectation of some sort of affect upon the deceased. I would appreciate any sort of perspective .Thanks.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, thank you, but more for your good compassionate heart and thoughtfulness. Hopefully the intent is not to make a point. Personally, the prayers are in vain, only because there is no purgatory from my view. Now, may you pray for protestants that are still “here” as may I pray for Catholics that are still "here’, on this side of life. Something we can all universally agree on.

Personally, I’ve never thought of prayers for others as being “in vain”.

Jon

 

[benhur]

Personally, I’ve never thought of prayers for others as being “in vain”.

Jon

Generally speaking, of course not Jon. Specifically, it is totally possible within a strict definition of “in vain” as in “not yielding the desired outcome”. That it is not fruitful in some other sense is still possible. It is important to pray in truth and spirit. How about this , when it comes to us, it is possible to do many things in vain, Lord help us. I strictly qualified the “prayer” in terms of CC purgatorial prayer per McCartney and my discord with it.

 

[JonNC]

Generally speaking, of course not Jon. Specifically, it is totally possible within a strict definition of “in vain” as in “not yielding the desired outcome”. That it is not fruitful in some other sense is still possible. It is important to pray in truth and spirit. How about this , when it comes to us, it is possible to do many things in vain, Lord help us. I strictly qualified the “prayer” in terms of CC purgatorial prayer per McCartney and my discord with it.

OTOH, scripture does not specifically deny the existence of an intermediate state/place where purgation takes place. Further, there is no scriptural restriction on praying for those who have departed. From your perspective, I would not expect you to pray for those who have died. The prayers you do offer, however, are heard by the Father. McCartney, OTOH, offers prayers for those who have died, and they are heard by the Father.

Jon

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Hi QN,
The document I linked above goes into great detail regarding all of this. And BTW, the LCMS is a signator. Starting at paragraph 179, it lays out the Lutheran historical view, with a focus on Smalcald.
I suggest reading from paragraph 157, but here is the conclusion of the section.

The document seems to be saying that Luther’s objections in the SA are concerned primarily with the Catholic practices associated with puragatory (which are still practiced today). However, it does not address Luther’s statement that praying for the dead is a contradiction of justification by faith alone. Do you think that the Lutheran Confessions would have to be revised in the event of a Catholic-Lutheran reunion that would more clearly reflect our common understandings than the present confessions?

 

[JonNC]

The document seems to be saying that Luther’s objections in the SA are concerned primarily with the Catholic practices associated with puragatory (which are still practiced today). However, it does not address Luther’s statement that praying for the dead is a contradiction of justification by faith alone. Do you think that the Lutheran Confessions would have to be revised in the event of a Catholic-Lutheran reunion that would more clearly reflect our common understandings than the present confessions?

Just like Trent would, yes. Because prayer for the dead is said to be not prohibited in other places in the confessions, my thought is that Luther is referring to prayers for those in Purgatory, etc.

From the Apology:

Now, as regards the adversaries’ citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; but we disapprove of the application ex opere operato of the Lord’s Supper on behalf of the dead. Neither do the ancients favor the adversaries concerning the opus operatum. And even though they have the testimonies especially of Gregory or the moderns, 95] we oppose to them the most clear and certain Scriptures. And there is a great diversity among the Fathers. They were men, and could err and be deceived. Although if they would now become alive again, and would see their sayings assigned as pretexts for the notorious falsehoods which the adversaries teach concerning the opus operatum, they would interpret themselves far differently.

Its the understanding of how prayers for the dead are used, not prayers for the dead in general. I hope that clarifies.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

The document seems to be saying that Luther’s objections in the SA are concerned primarily with the Catholic practices associated with puragatory (which are still practiced today). However, it does not address Luther’s statement that praying for the dead is a contradiction of justification by faith alone. Do you think that the Lutheran Confessions would have to be revised in the event of a Catholic-Lutheran reunion that would more clearly reflect our common understandings than the present confessions?

Just on an added note, I really like Pastor Will Weedon’ blog. He seems really good at weeding out the pietism and Reformed influences and getting back to orthodox Lutheranism. Here’s an example, on this topic.

weedon.blogspot.com/2009/11/on-prayer-for-dead.html

Jon

 

[benhur]

OTOH, scripture does not specifically deny the existence of an intermediate state/place where purgation takes place. Further, there is no scriptural restriction on praying for those who have departed. From your perspective, I would not expect you to pray for those who have died. The prayers you do offer, however, are heard by the Father. McCartney, OTOH, offers prayers for those who have died, and they are heard by the Father.

Jon

Yes, the Father hears all utterances, but how He regards them is another matter. triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/06/attempts-to-make-biblical-case-for.html I liked this article. but sorry not sure it addressed purgatory.

 

[McCartney]

Yes, the Father hears all utterances, but how He regards them is another matter. triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/06/attempts-to-make-biblical-case-for.html I liked this article. but sorry not sure it addressed purgatory.

And here is an explanation of Purgatory.

youtube.com/watch?v=dwsBQffhbXY

 

[benhur]

And here is an explanation of Purgatory.

youtube.com/watch?v=dwsBQffhbXY

Thank you -he is gifted speaker. but sorry, heard nothing to dissuade me.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I just had an idea and have started putting it into action.

Protestants (most) do not pray for the dead. They do not believe in Purgatory. Many of their relatives’ souls will be burning in Purgatory with no one to pray for them. I have started to specifically pray for the souls of Protestants in Purgatory.

Very generous!

 

[Faithdancer]

I’m okay with it.

Go ahead and pray for all the Protestant souls, even though I don’t believe in Purgatory.

If I am wrong and purgatory actually exists, then you are doing a great good, and I would want someone to pray for me when I get there.

If I am right and purgatory doesn’t exist, then the prayers won’t mean much anyways except to increase the charity of the person praying them, even in error.

Yep!

 

[cheese_sdc]

Baptising the dead is making a person a Christian after they are dead. See my earlier post of 2 Maccabees 12:43 - 46

Not really, both are about doing something to someone, after they have a say in the matter (both Mormons and Catholics are trying to affect change in the afterlife). I find both practices somewhat rude. Can’t we get our arguing over with before death and leave each other in peace during the afterlife? LOL

Of course, I’d imagine that the Catholic response would be “They now know the Truth now and will welcome my prayers”.

Never mind that the Mormons probably are saying the same thing. (I’m assuming…)

Le sigh.