Protestant Speaker at Mass

[Gorgias]

Then I kindly remind you that it doesn’t have to be a ‘homily’ for it to be liturgical abuse. The time for a homily is not to be used for announcements and guest speakers.

LOL!

It seems that, in this thread, people are talking about two distinct things: the ‘homily’ and the ‘time for a homily’. As far as I know, the rubrics dictate that the ‘homily’ – that is, the oration which delves into the Scriptures proclaimed – be delivered by a priest or deacon. And, yes, the ‘time’ for announcements is following the Prayer After Communion. (To wit, notice Paul’s post, above: he points out that the homily – that is, the preaching – is limited to a priest or deacon. Yet, it doesn’t say a word about anything that’s not preaching (announcements, etc). In fact, I don’t recall reading any Church document on liturgy that suggests that it’s a ‘liturgical abuse’ when announcements are made in this time frame, as you claim.

Perhaps you can provide a citation from Church teaching, supporting your assertion that it is a liturgical abuse?

Thanks!

 

[Elizium23]

At the section of the Mass designated for the Kyrie, can the priest say a Hail Mary?

At the section of the Mass designated for the Epiclesis, can the priest read the Last Gospel?

The Missal is clear, there is a time designated for Homily and a time designated for Announcements. I don’t understand why it can be seen as licit to mix and match here.

 

[Gorgias]

At the section of the Mass designated for the Kyrie, can the priest say a Hail Mary?

At the section of the Mass designated for the Epiclesis, can the priest read the Last Gospel?

The Missal is clear, there is a time designated for Homily and a time designated for Announcements. I don’t understand why it can be seen as licit to mix and match here.

You’re talking about changing the Mass by moving around liturgical rites and prayers. That’s not what we’re talking about here: we’re discussing an ‘announcement’ taking place following the homily. Apples and oranges.

 

[Elizium23]

You’re talking about changing the Mass by moving around liturgical rites and prayers. That’s not what we’re talking about here: we’re discussing an ‘announcement’ taking place following the homily. Apples and oranges.

The Profession of Faith or the General Intercessions follow the Homily in the Order of Mass.

 

[Discerning13]

LOL!

It seems that, in this thread, people are talking about two distinct things: the ‘homily’ and the ‘time for a homily’. As far as I know, the rubrics dictate that the ‘homily’ – that is, the oration which delves into the Scriptures proclaimed – be delivered by a priest or deacon. And, yes, the ‘time’ for announcements is following the Prayer After Communion. (To wit, notice Paul’s post, above: he points out that the homily – that is, the preaching – is limited to a priest or deacon. Yet, it doesn’t say a word about anything that’s not preaching (announcements, etc). In fact, I don’t recall reading any Church document on liturgy that suggests that it’s a ‘liturgical abuse’ when announcements are made in this time frame, as you claim.

Perhaps you can provide a citation from Church teaching, supporting your assertion that it is a liturgical abuse?

Thanks!

I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to understand. The Church made this thing called a missal. In this missal it specifically wrote out what a Priest is to and do during the liturgy. Anything contrary to what is stated in this missal is liturgical abuse. The Missal doesn’t specifically say not to have a protestant use the time for a homily to talk about the economic situation, then again the missal doesn’t specifically prohibit say…liturgical dance at the time of the homily. Common sense.

 

[larsont7]

Easiest solution - go to an EF Mass. No Protestant speakers, no deliberate deviation from the rubrics (under pain of grave sin), and no uncomfortable changes that make you want to start a new thread on CAF asking about them.

 

[Gorgias]

The Profession of Faith or the General Intercessions follow the Homily in the Order of Mass.

Agreed – in terms of liturgical acts, the creed or intercessions come next.

Let me ask it this way: suppose the priest gave a homily, and at the end of it, he made an announcement (let’s say, “immediately following Mass, please join us for coffee and donuts in the social hall”). Would you assert that this was a ‘liturgical abuse’?

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to understand. The Church made this thing called a missal. In this missal it specifically wrote out what a Priest is to and do during the liturgy. Anything contrary to what is stated in this missal is liturgical abuse.

In other words, “No, Gorgias, I don’t have anything from a magisterial source that says that an announcement at this time is a ‘liturgical abuse’.” Thanks!

 

[cmodrmac]

why would it be a problem for a Protestant to speak at Mass?-I understand the rule that a Priest or Deacon needs to give the Homily-but certainly giving information on financial issues is not a Homily

We had a Roman catholic sister give a Homily in our Church-it was well received( sister of St. Joseph)-obviously we do not have such a rule

 

[z_0101]

why would it be a problem for a Protestant to speak at Mass?-I understand the rule that a Priest or Deacon needs to give the Homily-but certainly giving information on financial issues is not a Homily

We had a Roman catholic sister give a Homily in our Church-it was well received( sister of St. Joseph)-obviously we do not have such a rule

That isn’t the question.

There’s no problem with anyone speaking at a Mass provided the topic material is appropriate and in keeping with the teachings of the Church.

The issue here is the timing. In the Missal the rubrics do not have a provision for a lay person to be speaking during the time set aside for the homily. Obviously, it happens that some Celebrants allow this to happen during part of this time for what appear to be good reasons; however, the flow of the order of the Rite is not to be interrupted except for some exceptional reason or event. Thus, once the Celebrant’s homily is done (or the Bishop, Deacon, Co-Celebrant), the Mass should continue directly to the profession of faith, the petitions, and then to the liturgy of the Eucharist. (usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-word/index.cfm).

Now as noted in my first posting, and have others, most likely, the Celebrant was trying to catch all of the parish slackers (harsh I know) and I think we all know the type, the ones that light the candles and never put any money in the box, the ones that never put anything in the collection or donate their time and talent (let’s face it, economics are hard and sometimes the cash just isn’t there - but we have two hands), the ones that come in after the 2nd reading and leave right after communion… these are the sheep that most likely were trying to be reached.
IMHO: They didn’t hear a word any way…
This doesn’t make it right
But this is such a minor thing, and the intention is for the good of the parish, forgive and move on as it says in the “Our Father…”
What I would really like to see is one of the CA-Official Apologists make a post here and put the final bow on the box

As for the sister giving the homily, she is not ordained, she shouldn’t have been giving the homily, that is a clear violation of the Missal - it expressly prohibits this act!

Exactly, the GIRM expressly prohibits this, only someone with Holy Orders can speak at this time and it should pertain to the readings as they relate to today’s needs.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html
Paragraph 66 -
66. The **homily **should **ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant **himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.[65] In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate

 

[z_0101]

In other words, “No, Gorgias, I don’t have anything from a magisterial source that says that an announcement at this time is a ‘liturgical abuse’.” Thanks!

How about from the USCCB (the red highlight is mine):

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/the-priest-at-mass.cfm
(please click thru to read the following in context)
Concluding Rites

Brief announcements may then be made (90a, 166, 184). No announcements should be made prior to this time, e.g., in the period of silence after Holy Communion.

That is black and white from the Bishops.

 

[CB_Catholic]

That isn’t the question.

There’s no problem with anyone speaking at a Mass provided the topic material is appropriate and in keeping with the teachings of the Church.

The issue here is the timing. In the Missal the rubrics do not have a provision for a lay person to be speaking during the time set aside for the homily. Obviously, it happens that some Celebrants allow this to happen during part of this time for what appear to be good reasons; however, the flow of the order of the Rite is not to be interrupted except for some exceptional reason or event. Thus, once the Celebrant’s homily is done (or the Bishop, Deacon, Co-Celebrant), the Mass should continue directly to the profession of faith, the petitions, and then to the liturgy of the Eucharist. (usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-word/index.cfm).

Now as noted in my first posting, and have others, most likely, the Celebrant was trying to catch all of the parish slackers (harsh I know) and I think we all know the type, the ones that light the candles and never put any money in the box, the ones that never put anything in the collection or donate their time and talent (let’s face it, economics are hard and sometimes the cash just isn’t there - but we have two hands), the ones that come in after the 2nd reading and leave right after communion… these are the sheep that most likely were trying to be reached.
IMHO: They didn’t hear a word any way…
This doesn’t make it right
But this is such a minor thing, and the intention is for the good of the parish, forgive and move on as it says in the “Our Father…”
What I would really like to see is one of the CA-Official Apologists make a post here and put the final bow on the box

As for the sister giving the homily, she is not ordained, she shouldn’t have been giving the homily, that is a clear violation of the Missal - it expressly prohibits this act!

The poster is Episcopalian, not Catholic, and they have different rules. The Sister could speak without any problem at their liturgy.

 

[z_0101]

We had a Roman catholic sister give a Homily in our Church-it was well received( sister of St. Joseph)-obviously we do not have such a rule

As for the sister giving the homily, she is not ordained, she shouldn’t have been giving the homily, that is a clear violation of the Missal - it expressly prohibits this act!

The poster is Episcopalian, not Catholic, and they have different rules. The Sister could speak without any problem at their liturgy.

Carrol, Opps, I forget to look in that upper right hand corner; of course Episcopalian have slightly different rules… and this lends a whole different light to the posting… I read now to be “it was ok for a RC to speak during the homily at an Episcopalian service… why would it not be ok for a Episcopalian to speak during the homily at a RC Mass?” (replace Episcopalian with any other faith).

:imsorry: Cmodrmac :imsorry:

I still stand by the answer given in that it has to with the timing of the rubrics and of course the statement by our Bishops that I noted in the subsequent post. Certainly an Episcopalian would be welcome to make an announcement during the appropriate section of the Mass.

 

[TheAdvocate]

No, that is not allowed.

But what if the bishop allows it?

 

[z_0101]

But what if the bishop allows it?

Even Bishops are human.

 

[Elizium23]

But what if the bishop allows it?

Sometimes bishops make decisions that are not in the scope of their authority to make. The law has not delegated this choice to ordinaries. Unless you can find a specific case of liturgical law offering choices to the ordinary then they don’t have the authority for it. There are plenty of these cases, of course, and some cases are for the episcopal conference to make complementary norms. But it is demonstrably true that lay homilies in the context of Mass are not within the authority of any ordinary to dispense or provide faculties.

And we have to be careful, because a lot of times “the bishop allows it” is what someone says when the bishop hasn’t expressly denied it. A lot of things happen that seem to be allowed by the bishop but they just go on because he hasn’t come down like a ton of bricks on the abuse. Bishops often have bigger fish to fry, so unless it is causing grave disruption or is a PR disaster or some other impasse has been reached, the bishop may be unwilling to make a decision against it. So unless someone has a letter in hand from a bishop with specific wording that makes it clear an action is permitted, I would be skeptical of claims of “the bishop allows it”.

 

[rugbyref]

A Protestant can speak, but not at that point in the Mass. He should speak right at the end before the final prayer.

I definetly agree with you. Holy Orders is the only order allow to talk during Homily, no one else.
The Church gives us parameters as to what can and cannot take place within the framework of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal states that:

1. The homily is part of the Liturgy and is strongly recommended,63 for it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an exposition of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of the listeners.64
2. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.65 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate

 

[TheAdvocate]

Sometimes bishops make decisions that are not in the scope of their authority to make. The law has not delegated this choice to ordinaries. Unless you can find a specific case of liturgical law offering choices to the ordinary then they don’t have the authority for it. There are plenty of these cases, of course, and some cases are for the episcopal conference to make complementary norms. But it is demonstrably true that lay homilies in the context of Mass are not within the authority of any ordinary to dispense or provide faculties.

And we have to be careful, because a lot of times “the bishop allows it” is what someone says when the bishop hasn’t expressly denied it. A lot of things happen that seem to be allowed by the bishop but they just go on because he hasn’t come down like a ton of bricks on the abuse. Bishops often have bigger fish to fry, so unless it is causing grave disruption or is a PR disaster or some other impasse has been reached, the bishop may be unwilling to make a decision against it. So unless someone has a letter in hand from a bishop with specific wording that makes it clear an action is permitted, I would be skeptical of claims of “the bishop allows it”.

I attended a Mass at my high school alma mater and an Episcopalian “priest” delivered the homily. I asked and was told that the school chaplain asked the bishop for permission and it was granted.

It was meant as an ecumenical gesture.

 

[Gorgias]

I attended a Mass at my high school alma mater and an Episcopalian “priest” delivered the homily. I asked and was told that the school chaplain asked the bishop for permission and it was granted.

It was meant as an ecumenical gesture.

In that case, it wasn’t a ‘homily’, but rather, a ‘reflection’.

 

[Gorgias]

How about from the USCCB (the red highlight is mine):

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/the-priest-at-mass.cfm
(please click thru to read the following in context)
Concluding Rites

Brief announcements may then be made (90a, 166, 184). No announcements should be made prior to this time, e.g., in the period of silence after Holy Communion.

That is black and white from the Bishops.

You make a good case (even if you don’t address the question I asked – namely, that the OP’s observation constitutes a ‘liturgical abuse’… )!

Yet, allow me to continue to play devil’s advocate…

In this thread, people continue to refer to the homily as a ‘time’; it’s not – it’s an event. That is, it’s “an exposition of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day”; what it does is “take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of the listeners.”

On the other hand, your quotes which reference the GIRM identify the spoken word that follows the Prayer After Communion as a “short announcement.” Again, this isn’t a ‘time’, it’s an ‘announcement’.

So, the first thing to note is that the OP’s question addresses neither ‘an exposition on … readings’ nor a ‘short announcement’. Therefore, can’t we say that the GIRM does not address what the OP observed? After all, it’s not a homily! Nor is it the kind of announcement that the GIRM mentions!

The second thing to note is the language of the GIRM. In the section on the announcement, it makes both positive and negative norms: the short announcement is to take place following the Prayer After Communion; furthermore, it is not to take place in the silence following Communion. However, the section on the homily only makes positive norms: the homily takes place following the Gospel. Yet, the GIRM does not say that other forms of speech are prohibited at that time. If you want to make the case that what the OP describes is a ‘short announcement’, you might succeed; however, unless that’s your tack, how can you say that the GIRM prohibits non-homiletic speech (as an exceptional case) that follows the homily?