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AugustTherese
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I understand your position.
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SeriousQuestion
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There’s another thread he made specifically for that subject so go take it there.
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AugustTherese
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Lol. I’m a he, but I actually take that as a compliment as the holiest creature is a she.
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“How many were at the formal protest at Speyer? They are the Protestants. Evangelical Catholics (Lutherans) are Protestants, and they have virtually no relation to other Reformation era movements.JonNC:
What? That you didn’t answer my question. Instead you asked a question. That is called burden of proof reversal. I love you, I’m just telling you what you’re doing and have done in the past.AugustTherese:
Your typical ad hominem.
Start there. Then stop the silly grouping that designated each non denom church as a denomination.
Then figure out how many basic theological groupings there are. 6? 8? 20?”
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This says 12. Sounds like a reasonable number to me.
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AugustTherese
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AugustTherese:
“How many were at the formal protest at Speyer? They are the Protestants. Evangelical Catholics (Lutherans) are Protestants, and they have virtually no relation to other Reformation era movements.JonNC:
What? That you didn’t answer my question. Instead you asked a question. That is called burden of proof reversal. I love you, I’m just telling you what you’re doing and have done in the past.AugustTherese:
Your typical ad hominem.
Start there. Then stop the silly grouping that designated each non denom church as a denomination.
Then figure out how many basic theological groupings there are. 6? 8? 20?”
This says 12. Sounds like a reasonable number to me.
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“In 2010, the largest Protestant denominational families were historically Pentecostal denominations (10.8%), Anglican (10.6%), Lutheran (9.7%), Baptist (9%), United and uniting churches (unions of different denominations) (7.2%), Presbyterian or Reformed (7%), Methodist (3.4%), Adventist (2.7%), Congregationalist (0.5%), Brethren (0.5%), The Salvation Army (0.3%) and Moravian (0.1%). Other denominations accounted for 38.2% of Protestants.[1]”
What are those ‘Other denominations’? They are non-denominational, albeit Protestant.
“In 2010, the largest Protestant denominational families were historically Pentecostal denominations (10.8%), Anglican (10.6%), Lutheran (9.7%), Baptist (9%), United and uniting churches (unions of different denominations) (7.2%), Presbyterian or Reformed (7%), Methodist (3.4%), Adventist (2.7%), Congregationalist (0.5%), Brethren (0.5%), The Salvation Army (0.3%) and Moravian (0.1%). Other denominations accounted for 38.2% of Protestants.[1]”JonNC:
AugustTherese:
“How many were at the formal protest at Speyer? They are the Protestants. Evangelical Catholics (Lutherans) are Protestants, and they have virtually no relation to other Reformation era movements.JonNC:
What? That you didn’t answer my question. Instead you asked a question. That is called burden of proof reversal. I love you, I’m just telling you what you’re doing and have done in the past.AugustTherese:
Your typical ad hominem.
Start there. Then stop the silly grouping that designated each non denom church as a denomination.
Then figure out how many basic theological groupings there are. 6? 8? 20?”Protestantism - Wikipedia
This says 12. Sounds like a reasonable number to me.
What are those ‘Other denominations’? They are non-denominational, albeit Protestant.
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Pick a number. Certainly it isn’t 33,000 or 44,000 or 66,000, or even 1,000.
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mcq72
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What ? I thought John the Baptist holds that honor, and that proclaimed from the lips of Jesus. lol…?
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SeriousQuestion
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Jesus said greatest not holiest and that only applies on Earth.
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AugustTherese
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And, do you remember what he said next? Also, Jesus was born of a woman (even though he was not a creature)…so, there’s that.
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lanman87
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I have already said that brothers can mean spiritual brothers or close kinsmen. Here is my response to those arguments from an earlier post.
The versions I read (ESV, NIV, NLT) say close relatives or kinsmen in Gen 13:8. Once again, the context of Matthew 13:54-58 is that others are scoffing at Jesus and using His immediate family to justify why they thought there was nothing special about Jesus. This isn’t Jesus addressing one of His followers as a “Brother” and it isn’t Paul addressing believers as 'Brothers and Sisters". This is non believers basically saying “What makes him think he is so special. We know his parents and his siblings. He is just a normal guy and not really that special”. Of course, they were wrong about Him being special but it is clear they believed He had brothers and sisters.
The versions I read (ESV, NIV, NLT) say close relatives or kinsmen in Gen 13:8. Once again, the context of Matthew 13:54-58 is that others are scoffing at Jesus and using His immediate family to justify why they thought there was nothing special about Jesus. This isn’t Jesus addressing one of His followers as a “Brother” and it isn’t Paul addressing believers as 'Brothers and Sisters". This is non believers basically saying “What makes him think he is so special. We know his parents and his siblings. He is just a normal guy and not really that special”. Of course, they were wrong about Him being special but it is clear they believed He had brothers and sisters.
Three thoughts on this. First, it was His mother and brother who were asking for him. Not just his brothers. Second, from three different translations I’ve read all it says is they sent someone in to call him. That doesn’t sound like they were demanding anything. Third, sometimes people don’t behave in the way culture expects. Just because culture dictates something doesn’t mean people always follow cultural norms.
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mcq72
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Ok, so we have our number one and two counted, for no one was more least (? lol) and no one was therefore greater than Christ.
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SeriousQuestion
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What?
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lanman87
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I agree wholeheartedly with Isaiah 7:14. Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Christ. I am not disputing that fact.
It totally amazes me how you can find Mary in totally unrelated passages.
This is pure speculation. Don’t you think the God of the Universe would be able to keep himself pure no matter where He is at?
But Mary wasn’t childless. At the very least she had Jesus.
It totally amazes me how you can find Mary in totally unrelated passages.
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lanman87
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I was thinking the same thing. The Song of Solomon is full of sexual imagery. Which is ironic considering the belief about Mary. If you are gonna say 6:4 is about Mary then you have to say 7:6-9 is also about Mary.
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SeriousQuestion
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The sexual element doesn’t really go to that level and its mostly symbolic. Like I said before, it works out really well with the Church’s Mariology. 7:6-9 shows how God takes full possession of Mary and communicates Himself to her in a special manner. It also fits nicely with mysticism and how one is able to obtain a union with God. This passage is a good example of such a union.
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chessnerd321
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What I grew up in, a small pentacostal denomination, Mary was largely ignored.
I grew up with some very surface level… let’s call it recognition of saints. That these people, Kind David, the apostles, Mary, and others were in the Bible so that we could learn from the stories written about them.
Thus, one might hear sermons on “stepping out of your boat like Peter” or having faith like the woman who touched the hem of Jesus’ garment etc.
This was simply extended to the Blessed Virgin without much further thought, mostly focusing on the Annunciation and Nativity. So we should be like Mary and submit to God’s will etc.
So what’s said in the Bible is taken at face value, and no further thought is given. Joseph was a dude, they got married had kids, raised Jesus etc etc. Mary of course was a virgin when Jesus was concieved. She isn’t particularly special amoung those in the Bible: she’s just one more holy person who did what God asked of her. She can’t hear your prayers, she’s not the ever-virgin, she’s not sinless, she wasn’t taken to heaven in any particularly special way. Any prayers asking for her intercession are misconstrued as worship.
Note: I’m a convert don’t go telling me those things are wrong I already know.
I grew up with some very surface level… let’s call it recognition of saints. That these people, Kind David, the apostles, Mary, and others were in the Bible so that we could learn from the stories written about them.
Thus, one might hear sermons on “stepping out of your boat like Peter” or having faith like the woman who touched the hem of Jesus’ garment etc.
This was simply extended to the Blessed Virgin without much further thought, mostly focusing on the Annunciation and Nativity. So we should be like Mary and submit to God’s will etc.
So what’s said in the Bible is taken at face value, and no further thought is given. Joseph was a dude, they got married had kids, raised Jesus etc etc. Mary of course was a virgin when Jesus was concieved. She isn’t particularly special amoung those in the Bible: she’s just one more holy person who did what God asked of her. She can’t hear your prayers, she’s not the ever-virgin, she’s not sinless, she wasn’t taken to heaven in any particularly special way. Any prayers asking for her intercession are misconstrued as worship.
Note: I’m a convert don’t go telling me those things are wrong I already know.
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chessnerd321
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I think it’s a little more complex than that. Perhaps God CAN do whatever he wants. But here’s the, rather good IMO, line of reasoning that makes it seem fitting for Mary to have been immaculately concieved.
- Scripture seems to reveal that forgiveness of sins comes through the sheding of blood. In the old testament this is through the blood of animals, and for us this is the blood of Jesus.
- Original sin is passed down through your parents “genetically” meaning it’s inherited.
4A. Then Jesus would have inherited original sin from his mother.
5A. But Jesus is sinless so He didn’t. But by what means was it forgiven or the sin taken away? Can we talk about Jesus having been forgiven of sin?
And before you say “well God could have simply taken it away/not allowed it to pass on” I’ll refer to 1. in that, that seems to defy what we know about salvation. If God can “just forgive” then Jesus died for nothing in the first place.
Let’s try again without assuming 3A.
3B. The grace of Jesus was applied to Mary so that she never had the stain of original sin.
4B. Jesus was then born sinless of no parents with original sin.
5B. Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of sin, and it is this grace that He applied to his mother.
And again anticipating your objection of “but forgiveness can’t go back in time.” I disagree. John the Baptist baptised people for the forgiveness of sin, but he did so in the ministry of Jesus Christ, before he was crucified. Further, Jesus himself forgives sins in his own name before and during the crucification.
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mcq72
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Well it’s both isn’t it ? Man’s sexual union is quite real and quite symbolic, as we are made in His image.
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lanman87
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Jesus didn’t receive Mary’s Original sin (as defined by Catholicism) simply because He is Jesus. Jesus didn’t need saving or forgiving simply because of who He is. The law of sin an death has no power over Jesus. In other words, the law of original sin doesn’t apply to Jesus because He is God. He doesn’t need the shedding of Blood, He doesn’t need the law, He doesn’t need Mary to be a “new Ark”. The Divinity of Christ was able to keep the Humanness of Christ free from sin. Original or otherwise.
It could also be that Augustine and the other church fathers just got it wrong concerning original sin. It could be that we don’t inherit sin but inherit a sin nature but aren’t actually guilty of sin until we commit our first sin. Which is why we don’t have to worry about babies and those who don’t have the capacity to choose to sin. The reason we are all sinners is not because we are born guilty but because it is impossible to overcome the sin nature, therefore we all choose to sin. But the moment of our first sin we spiritually die and the only way to come back to life is by the grace of God.
Either way, Jesus didn’t need anyone, not even Mary, to keep Him holy. Jesus is the essence of Holiness. He is Holy because He is the Son of God.
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chessnerd321
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I again think that whisking away the problem by saying “he’s Jesus so of course he didn’t have sin” is a circular and confusing way of resolving the issue. And you’ll also notice I never said that the way God choose to bring Jesus into the world was the only way. But rather it’s the most fitting and logical way.
If all you can offer as an alternative is “it just is how it is bc Jesus” then I’ll stick to that assertion.
Anyway this is really just a post to discuss WHAT people believe not to argue about it if I understand OP properly. So I’ll leave it here.
If all you can offer as an alternative is “it just is how it is bc Jesus” then I’ll stick to that assertion.
Anyway this is really just a post to discuss WHAT people believe not to argue about it if I understand OP properly. So I’ll leave it here.
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