Jon,
Well, this answers my question as to why you have such a radical anti-Luther, anti-Lutheran bias.
Of course you lead with this false accusation. You continue to want to portray me as being anti-Luther and anti-Lutheran. What I am Jon, is PRO-Catholic, and what I also am anti to anything that is anti-Catholic. Those who fit the bill - I will oppose. As a matter of fact, I have no problem whatsoever with probably 99% of Lutherans, which BTW is probably the number who are either completely unaware of the ridiculous antichrist hogwash (90%), or are not in one of the communions who hold to it (90%). It is really only those who actually hold to it and defend it that cause a problem.
Actually, I’m sorry that this seems to be the source of your vitriol, as there is nothing I can do about it.
Vitriol Jon? With all due respect, actually you COULD do something about it. You could eradicate that offensive language from the Lutheran Confessions, and while you are at it you could also eradicate the ‘adherent’ stuff also. IF the LCMS would actually do that I would have IMMENSE respect. I mean IMMENSE. That is what you could do Jon. What do you think the chances are that you could actually do that?
What is interesting however is the number of times even in this thread you have spoken of us, of me, as holding heretical beliefs.
What I have said Jon is that Martin Luther was judged to be a heretic and the Catholic Church has judged Protestantism to be heresy. That is the judgment of the Catholic Church and also as expressed as the official position of Catholic Answers. All I am doing is supporting that position. Imagine that, a Catholic supporting the official Catholic position on a Catholic Apologetics Forum! What will we Catholics think of next? It is still allowable for me to support Church teaching isn’t it?
Frankly, it is just as offensive as the charge by the Lutheran reformers that some of the teachings regarding the papal office is opposed to Christ.
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that I find problematic. First of all, it is FAR more offensive. We have gone over the antichrist thing in great detail several times and while I have absolutely NO INTEST in doing it again (unless forced to by what I consider to be a misrepresentation of the Lutheran Confessions).
In fact Jon, your statement above bears almost NO resemblance to the actual language of your Confessions. I think it is what you would LIKE it to say. Your ‘version’ is SO watered down as to be unrecognizable:
“the charge by the LUTHERAN REFORMERS that SOME of the TEACHINGS regarding the PAPAL OFFICE,”
Those six words that I have capitalized certainly do ‘tone down’ an extremely offensive accusation. The actual language, from the Lutheran Confessions that you are required to hold to contain FAR different language.
Jon, the following was downloaded from the LCMS website. It explains in extremely clear and extremely offensive language that the “Pope is the very antichrist”, one that you even admit is offensive. Your statement about the “the charge by the LUTHERAN REFORMERS that SOME of the TEACHINGS regarding the PAPAL OFFICE,” does not exactly match up all that well with the ACTUAL TEXT.
If you insist, we can take a look at the official language which is posted on your LCMS website. As you well know, it says that “Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.”
From the LCMS website:
“Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.””(Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)
Let’s return now to your statement about:
“the charge by the LUTHERAN REFORMERS that SOME of the TEACHINGS regarding the PAPAL OFFICE,”
First of all, it is not JUST a charge by the Lutheran Reformers, but also by the LCMS. Secondly, the Smalcald Articles do not mention ‘some of the teachings’ – they don’t need to, because the accusation about the antichrist is MUCH more personally directed than that. Lastly, there is absolutely NO mention about the ‘papal office’ as you put it. The last sentence in the above quote is VERY clear:
“The very antichrist”, Jon. Yes the Lutheran Reformers made this accusation, but in fact, the LCMS, here in modern times repeats that accusation on your website.
We have been down this road before, and I have yet to see EVEN ONE Catholic buy into your position, which seems to me to be even more watered down than the last time.
Also according to your LCMS website, you as a member of the LCMS are “required to ‘subscribe’ unconditionally to the Lutheran Confessions because they are a pure exposition of the Word of God.”
To me that means that you are not allowed to water down the actual language of your Confession.
