Protestant Theologian Karl Barth on Sola Scriptura

[MaryT777]

Hi Topper,

I certainly wasn’t trying to suggest that SS is a proper practice — that’s way outside my area of knowledge. Merely pointing out what I think is a flaw in an argument you were presenting as a logical progression. My point is simply that it is not possible to base an argument on the suggestion that Christ provided us with certainty when in fact uncertainty abounds. No doubt had he, being True God, wanted to make our knowledge certain he could have done so (the usual argument, I think, is that his concern not to counter free will is the reason he didn’t) .

I am a Catholic and have just been reading all of the great posts on this thread. I really appreciate the non Catholics sharing their POV’s and this post really helped me to understand more about the thoughts behind SS. That “free will” problem. That’s certainly something we can all agree upon I might think.

Blessings to all our posters and
…towards a better understanding of each other.

Mary.

:tiphat:

 

[Abu]

Picky Picky #335
My point is simply that it is not possible to base an argument on the suggestion that Christ provided us with certainty when in fact uncertainty abounds.

There is no question in reality that Christ provided mankind with certainty, to presume otherwise is to deny reality, for the Christ clearly established His Church.

**“You are Peter and on this rock I will build MY Church." **(Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later, also to the Twelve]. [My emphasis]]

That same God the Son who, having given His authority to St Peter, confirmed: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).

"All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And, behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28: 18-20).

Uncertainty may abound in those who choose not to follow, or do not know, God’s teaching through His Son.

Jesus is not supporting the multitudinous errors of others, here, but guaranteeing His truths in His Church for all time.

Jesus warned dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

It is only to His Catholic Church that God the Son gave His power to teach His Truths until the end of time.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Honesty? No. Christ told us the world would hate us.

Jon

Then why did Jesus pray for our complete unity saying “then the world will know…”?

I’ve spent the past year posting primarily on atheist forums, and I can assure you that many atheists are former Christians and very aware of the disagreements among Christian churches. I’ve even see the 30,000 denominations figure quoted by an atheist.

They love to cite our divisions as another reason why they believe Christianity is a lie.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Then why did Jesus pray for our complete unity saying “then the world will know…”?

I’ve spent the past year posting primarily on atheist forums, and I can assure you that many atheists are former Christians and very aware of the disagreements among Christian churches. I’ve even see the 30,000 denominations figure quoted by an atheist.

They love to cite our divisions as another reason why they believe Christianity is a lie.

Muslims use the same 30,000 number against as and claim it’s proof Christianity is full of conjecture. They also point to protestants using a different bible than us

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Muslims use the same 30,000 number against as and claim it’s proof Christianity is full of conjecture. They also point to protestants using a different bible than us

The 30,000 number is a load of cra*p and rational Catholic apologists have scolded the armchair variety for using it.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Then why did Jesus pray for our complete unity saying “then the world will know…”?

I’ve spent the past year posting primarily on atheist forums, and I can assure you that many atheists are former Christians and very aware of the disagreements among Christian churches. I’ve even see the 30,000 denominations figure quoted by an atheist.

They love to cite our divisions as another reason why they believe Christianity is a lie.

Atheists are atheists for one reason and one reason only:
God interferes with their fun.
Anything else is just dressing.

 

[JonNC]

Then why did Jesus pray for our complete unity saying “then the world will know…”?

I’ve spent the past year posting primarily on atheist forums, and I can assure you that many atheists are former Christians and very aware of the disagreements among Christian churches. I’ve even see the 30,000 denominations figure quoted by an atheist.

They love to cite our divisions as another reason why they believe Christianity is a lie.

If we were united, and stood for the sanctity of life of the soon to be born, they would not hate us less.
If we were untied, and stood for the sanctity of marriage, they would still call us haters and homophobes.

The world knows us, and hates us, whether or not we are united in doctrine or institution.

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

The 30,000 number is a load of cra*p and rational Catholic apologists have scolded the armchair variety for using it.

Which, unfortunately, doesn’t change the perception of unbelievers that Christianity is a lie because we can’t seem to get on the same page with one another.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Atheists are atheists for one reason and one reason only:
God interferes with their fun.
Anything else is just dressing.

What is the basis for your conclusion?

There are a number of reasons why people do not believe in the existence of God. Here are a few:

1. 
   *]They have been hurt or scandalized by someone in the Church (parents or clergy).
   *]They have been frustrated by God’s silence at important moments of personal crisis.
   *]They have been unable to find satisfying answers to reasonable intellectual questions.
   *]They have been overwhelmed by the existence of evil and suffering in the world.
   *]They have been raised in a home where the gospel was unknown.

 

[JonNC]

Which, unfortunately, doesn’t change the perception of unbelievers that Christianity is a lie because we can’t seem to get on the same page with one another.

True, but it doesn’t help when we misrepresent ourselves as well (the methodology that comes to the 30,000 number, which includes 240 some Catholic Churches, is that of a protestant IIRC).

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

If we were united, and stood for the sanctity of life of the soon to be born, they would not hate us less.
If we were untied, and stood for the sanctity of marriage, they would still call us haters and homophobes.

The world knows us, and hates us, whether or not we are united in doctrine or institution.

Jon

What you are saying here and what I said above are BOTH correct.

The world will hate us because it first hated Him. However, there are also those who have stopped listening to us because we do not speak with His one voice.

 

[Randy_Carson]

True, but it doesn’t help when we misrepresent ourselves as well (the methodology that comes to the 30,000 number, which includes 240 some Catholic Churches, is that of a protestant IIRC).

Jon

Jon-

After 10 years in this forum, I am EXTREMELY familiar with the argument concerning the dispute concerning the number of denominations. In fact, several years ago, I went over to the publisher’s offices (which happen to be located a couple of miles from my home), and thumbed through the pages of the Encyclopedia…just to see it for myself.

But let me ask you this since you are old enough to remember what a phone book was (), when you turned to the “Churches” section of the yellow pages, how many different denominations - not churches - but denominations were listed?

How many could you and I name together off the top of our heads?

More than one?

'Nuff said.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Atheists are atheists for one reason and one reason only:
God interferes with their fun.
Anything else is just dressing.

I’m not sure we are supposed to discuss atheism here – in any case I don’t want to, apart from making the point that your comment is rubbish. Why it should be thought necessary to dismiss other people’s beliefs (the thought processes behind which you cannot know) in such a cavalier way I don’t understand. It is certainly not the way I would address your belief system.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The 30,000 number is a load of cra*p and rational Catholic apologists have scolded the armchair variety for using it.

What do you believe the actual number to be?

I think even if it were only 100 it would still be considered terrible division

 

[Picky_Picky]

What is the basis for your conclusion?

There are a number of reasons why people do not believe in the existence of God. Here are a few:

1. 
   *]They have been hurt or scandalized by someone in the Church (parents or clergy).
   *]They have been frustrated by God’s silence at important moments of personal crisis.
   *]They have been unable to find satisfying answers to reasonable intellectual questions.
   *]They have been overwhelmed by the existence of evil and suffering in the world.
   *]They have been raised in a home where the gospel was unknown.

1. 
   That is a thoughtful statement. Those are motivations many of us will have met in atheists.

 

[JustaServant]

Then why did Jesus pray for our complete unity saying “then the world will know…”?

I’ve spent the past year posting primarily on atheist forums, and I can assure you that many atheists are former Christians and very aware of the disagreements among Christian churches. I’ve even see the 30,000 denominations figure quoted by an atheist.

They love to cite our divisions as another reason why they believe Christianity is a lie.

Or maybe they just know which buttons to push.

 

[JonNC]

What do you believe the actual number to be?

I think even if it were only 100 it would still be considered terrible division

There were already two as a result of Chalcedon. That’s already too many.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon-

After 10 years in this forum, I am EXTREMELY familiar with the argument concerning the dispute concerning the number of denominations. In fact, several years ago, I went over to the publisher’s offices (which happen to be located a couple of miles from my home), and thumbed through the pages of the Encyclopedia…just to see it for myself.

But let me ask you this since you are old enough to remember what a phone book was (), when you turned to the “Churches” section of the yellow pages, how many different denominations - not churches - but denominations were listed?

How many could you and I name together off the top of our heads?

More than one?

'Nuff said.

In my hometown? 15 or 20. Maybe 25 at the outside. Then again, there were probably more Catholic and Lutheran parishes than all the others combined.

No one is arguing that divisionis right, certainly not me. I just think the number is so blatently overstated as to be worthy of ignoring. And the evidence is that the same model gives us 240 some odd Catholic Churches. It is absurd.

Jon

 

[Topper17]

Hi Wanna,

Thanks for your response.

Thank you for your response Topper. I am promising to review your content with logical analysis in mind….
In answer to your question of “at which step did I defy logic.” I have no immediate answer because I don’t think it is that simple and I need some time.

I appreciate that and look forward to your review.

God Bless You Wanna, Topper

 

[SyCarl]

Hi Pick,

You say that Christ did not intend to provide us with certainty? I disagree. As we know, Christ, the Apostles, the Scriptures and also the Early Church Fathers ALL call us to Unity, including Unity of belief. That Unity means that it is important that we ALL believe the same thing. It is important that NOBODY believe something different. That means that it was extremely important to Christ that we believe His Absolute Truth accurately, that we know and believe exactly what He intends for us to know.

A question arises as to how much truth we are required to know. For example, was Jesus left handed, right handed or ambidextrous? He surely must have been one of these but is it really necessary to know which? This is an extreme example but my reading of the early church is that it had a lot of latitude as to what could believed. For example, Augustine wrote;

But if it is supported by the evident authority of the divine Scriptures, namely those which in the Church are called canonical, it must be believed without reservation. In regard to other witnesses of evidence which are offered as guarantees of belief, you may believe or not, according as you estimate that they either have or have not the weight necessary to produce belief.

Augustine (Letter 147, Fathers of the Church volume 20))
books.google.ca/books?isbn=0813215609

A specific example would be purgatory.

And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it.

Augustine (The Enchiridion Chapter 69)
newadvent.org/fathers/1302.htm

I can’t see that Augustine was taken to task for saying these things.

I think too many people read the early church fathers with the purpose of proof texting some point they want to make and I can probably be accused of doing this above.

What I find is that in some places the early church fathers wrote things that would be consistent with Protestantism and other places they are consistent with Catholicism. The Catholic view may well predominate but the statements consistent with Protestant teaching were not condemned at the time. This was a later development.

One thing that seems clear to me though is that many of those who have been named saints and doctors of the church made statements that would not be consistent with what the Catholic teaches today. While some of the doctrines were not defined until a later date, the truth remains the truth. If it is necessary to believe something today it would seem to me that belief should always have been required. God does not change and to me that includes what He requires us to believe. It does not make sense to say you didn’t have to believe statement “A” yesterday but you do have to believe it today. If something must be believed now then it must always have been necessary to believe it. It could said that the church failed those who didn’t believe something that must now be believed by not telling them that.

A major reason for divisions in the Church today is because someone decided it was necessary to define something that had not been defined before and condemn those who don’t agree with them. Men seem to think that they have the right to know everything and so define things they think we must know.

On the point of sola scripura and tradition, how do you decide when your opponent also claims to have oral tradition handed down by the Apostles? Irenaeus wrote:

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world.”

Irenaeus (Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 2, Paragraph 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iii.html