T
tawny
Guest
Good one.Time for:
- Status
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
Faith is the key issue in everything. Without faith, what is there? The Eucharist, baptism, forgiveness of sins, Christ dying for us…all these things come by way of faith.
Catholic do not simply use the teachings passed down by the Apostles. They also have faith in those teachings, the Apostles, and the one that the Apostles got the Gospel from.
Both Catholic and non Catholics have faith. Without such, this whole thing we call Christianity falls apart.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Faith without Love is nothing.
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
BUT1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Faith without Love is nothing.
One must have faith FIRST and then show love.
One must have faith FIRST beforing doing the work of the Lord.
Faith always comes first. Does not have to be faith alone, but faith is always first.
Can’t speak for protestants, but as a Lutheran, yes, we say that we are justified not by works, but by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ’s saving work alone, as St. Paul tells us. However, St. Paul and James also tell that the faith we must have is a saving faith, one that works through love. So, we also believe that without works, faith serves no purpose and is a dead faith.
Christ tells us two things - that we must love the Lord our God, and the second is like the first, we must love our neighbors as ourselves.
Works do not save, but works are necessary for the regenerate.
A Catholic will tell you that in Romans 3:28, Luther “added” alone. A Lutheran will tell you that Luther translated from Greek to German, and that said translation required alone because of the way Germans speak. In the English, alone is not in any translation.
Judge for yourself.
Jon
Indeed!!!1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Faith without Love is nothing.
"It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith." - Luther
Jon
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
HmmmBUT
One must have faith FIRST and then show love.
One must have faith FIRST beforing doing the work of the Lord.
Faith always comes first. Does not have to be faith alone, but faith is always first.
Grace precedes Faith and Love precedes everything since God is Love (1 John 4:8).
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
His Grace provides us the tools with which we can respond to Him. But He gives us His Grace because He loved us first. Therefore, even if our Faith can move mountains but we have no love, we missed the whole point and it was for nothing.
Without God’s love we have nothing, no Grace, no Faith - nothing.
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
Just messing with ya
S
spina1953
Guest
Two things: First it is my understanding that Protestant is taken to mean protest, so in effect this means those outside of the Catholic Church. Those who do not agree with and have broken a way from the Catholic Church are protesting the Catholic Church and what it teaches. Secondly, It is my understanding that faith is a gift from God, and that grace is also a pure gift from God, unmerited by us. God loved us first and prompted us with His grace that He offers to us and thereby if we accept this grace from God the gift of faith is also offered to us and if accepted then of course we begin to believe in Him who created us and the authority of His Word. We have been given the choice to either accept what God has offered us or we can reject what God has offered. God does not force us to believe in Him or to accept His gift of faith or His graces. We need to remember that it was God who revealed Himself to us or we would not know that He is God.
F
FathersKnowBest
Guest
Where, exactly, does St. Paul tell us this?
Or any scripture?
I affirm that we are saved by grace alone (at least initially), but we must “work out our salvation.” [Php 2:12]
I can also point out that in James, what you have written is at least partially contradicted, when he says:
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
So, Catholic teaching agrees with all of scripture. Your statements that “we are justified not by works” and “through faith alone” are directly in contradiction with scripture.
That is incorrect, as Dr. Luther himself had admitted.
From Philip Schaff’s History of the Christian Church (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons,
1910):
So, obviously, it was far from “obvious” that the word alone was a translational necessity according to many contemporary linguistic experts. And the fact that he removed it from subsequent tranlsations also shows that it was not necessary.
It was in fact a prime example of proud eisegesis.
No. The origin of the term comes from a protest of government restriction of religious activities of the Evangelical churches, at the 2nd Diet of Speyer in 1529.
I think you would find few today who look at their faith communion membership as any kind of protest against anyone. I am actively involved here, and I don’t view my being Lutheran in that way. Most protestants are members of their church for reasons not even remotely related to the Catholic church down the street.
In general terms, I have no problem with this.
Jon
S
spina1953
Guest
You might be correct in that Protest was about government but since it is a word Protestantism to mean a protest of some type or kind, it seems fairly obvious that if a Church is not in communion with the Catholic Church, whether by doctrinal or by dogma’s of what the Catholic Church teaches then it is then protesting the catholic Church and what it teaches and believes. At least it seems that way to me.
I think yours would have been a reasonable assessment generations ago. Today, however, as I said, the average parishioner sitting in the pew of the local Baptist or Methodist or Evangelical, etc. church, has not considered the Catholic Church as anything other than the church down the street that they do not attend. Today, protestant mean a western communion that isn’t Catholic, and even the last part is irrelevant to most today.
Jon
S
spina1953
Guest
JonNC: I understand what you have posted. It does in a sense make sense, yet, I think that you have to admit that even if your Church does not think that way or those within your Church, there are those who do who are not Lutheran, who obvious do. I think that any Church outside the Catholic Church who have teachings or understandings that are not Catholic that call themselves Protestant whether they consider the Catholic Church just another Church down the street. So I think then if what you say is true, why would any of these Churches or those that belong to whatever Church call themselves Protestant? if they are not protesting Catholicism?
Oh, sure. There are those who are indeed strongly opposed to the Catholic Church, who seem to spend more time on that aspect of things. Some might call them anti-Catholic. They are certainly there. Sadly, some might even be Lutheran.
Actually, it seems like the biggest “protesters” against the Catholic Church are part of the SSPX movement, though they would be outraged to be called “protestant”.
Jon
A
Amo_a_Jesus
Guest
I Jesus Found One church, and even if Only 3 other denominations which one is the
true church? I think the point is not how may exactly are right there, that is irrelevant.
true church? I think the point is not how may exactly are right there, that is irrelevant.
S
spina1953
Guest
JonNC I do not disagree with your thoughts on what you have said. Just for myself I have no problems with what people will or not believe as each must seek God in their own way and by whatever graces God gives one to seek in in truth. The sad fact is as you noted that they are many anti-Catholic people out there who for whatever reason want to thrash the Catholic Church and what it believes and teaches. I do not have any problem about whether Protestants use one Bible over the Catholic Bible either as I understand that many Protestants use the KJV that has to my understanding the Deutrocanonical books of the Old Testament. It seems to me to be more in who one interpret the Bible in that what it says and what it means, any many think or do think that they have the right to interpret it by their own standards and try to convince others that whatever their particular interpretation is the only correct one to have and are not willing to think otherwise.
A
adf417
Guest
Jon, in your opinion, what is the philosophical differences between the current SSPX movement and the pre-reformation movement?Oh, sure. There are those who are indeed strongly opposed to the Catholic Church, who seem to spend more time on that aspect of things. Some might call them anti-Catholic. They are certainly there. Sadly, some might even be Lutheran.
Actually, it seems like the biggest “protesters” against the Catholic Church are part of the SSPX movement, though they would be outraged to be called “protestant”.
Jon
Peace bro!!!
- Status