Protestant view of Israel.

[luthier93]

What Bible passage leads you to believe that the UN is an instrument of God?

Not so, my friend. If you have even a limited knowledge of the Bible and God’s character, you should know that He can and does use whomsoever and whatsoever He chooses to carry out His plan. If you don’t believe He can use the UN, you should show us that.

 

[CopticChristian]

Not so, my friend. If you have even a limited knowledge of the Bible and God’s character, you should know that He can and does use whomsoever and whatsoever He chooses to carry out His plan. If you don’t believe He can use the UN, you should show us that.

Your UN at work in the LGBT world…Is God using the UN?..Naaaaaaah

answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/31/riddle-united-nations-homosexuality

**International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia. As part of their effort to promote the acceptance of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism, the UN Human Rights Office posted a short video on “human rights” to their Women Watch site, which promotes gender equality and empowerment of women, as well as to its YouTube channel.

It preaches tolerance and equality for behaviors that are offensive not just to Christianity but also to other religions around the world. The message of tolerance and equality is incredibly intolerant toward those who might disagree. It claims a “victim” status for a group of people who desire that their behavior be equated with a civil right. And ultimately, it attempts to change the definition of homophobia through the use of emotional appeals.

The United Nations has one simple message to the millions of LGBT people around the world. You are not alone. . . . LGBT rights are human rights. . . . Together, we will build a world that is free and equal.

These final statements are in direct conflict with the authority of God’s Word. Human rights are grounded solely in God, and the supposed “right” to engage in homosexual behavior is not something His Word allows without severe consequences (1 Corinthians 6:9–11). The idea that man can “build a world that is free and equal,” creating “human rights” that conflict with and are apart from the foundation of the Bible, is reminiscent of the incident at the Tower of Babel, where man said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth” (Genesis 11:4). Man is making himself the authority, rather than the Word of God.**

 

[luthier93]

Your UN at work in the LGBT world…Is God using the UN?..Naaaaaaah

answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/31/riddle-united-nations-homosexuality

1, that’s not biblical proof, that’s human words
2, You should know that God uses sinners…look at yourself
3, Cyrus was used by God in a similar situation. Did he never do anything wrong?
4, Even a man after God’s own heart, David, sinned in a sexual manner. Was he never used by God?
5, God’s plan is that the world will become even more evil as time progresses so He can save His people and His glory can be shown. I’d argue He’s definitely using the UN for this purpose. Why not others?

Biblical proof please.

 

[CopticChristian]

1, that’s not biblical proof, that’s human words
2, You should know that God uses sinners…look at yourself
3, Cyrus was used by God in a similar situation. Did he never do anything wrong?
4, Even a man after God’s own heart, David, sinned in a sexual manner. Was he never used by God?
5, God’s plan is that the world will become even more evil as time progresses so He can save His people and His glory can be shown. I’d argue He’s definitely using the UN for this purpose. Why not others?

Biblical proof please.

You are asking me to disprove what you believe to be true. No, you prove what you believe to be true with some Bible verse.

And, I do admire an astute mind, someone that is able to see beyond the computer screen…

2, You should know that God uses sinners…look at yourself
3, Cyrus was used by God in a similar situation.

I shall look in the mirror with a renewed interest in becoming more like Cyrus…

 

[luthier93]

You are asking me to disprove what you believe to be true. No, you prove what you believe to be true with some Bible verse.

And, I do admire an astute mind, someone that is able to see beyond the computer screen…

I shall look in the mirror with a renewed interest in becoming more like Cyrus…

No, no. You are asking me to prove what I believe to be true and you believe false. At least give evidence why you believ it to be false. I gave mine why it’s true.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Biblical proof please.

Only fundamentalists and evangelicals demand “Biblical proof” for everything under the sun…while providing none for many of thier beliefs or traditions. They use the Bible as it was never intended to be used. As a how-to book, a crystal ball, even a financial planner. But that’s another thread.
Declaring God “used the UN” to “create” Israel is very dangerous. You and I are not God. To assume you know what God is thinking or planning, using a Book you have no authority to interpret, is the height of arrorgance.
What scares me is the extent I see many evangelicals going to protect-support the modern nation of Israel. Many appear to have crossed over to actually worshipping Israel. Just turn on TBN to see that. I fear many are going over into complete apostasy in thier obsession with the modern state of Israel. See John Hagee wearing Jewish priest vestments. The same guy who would condemn Catholic priests wearing vestments.
Since I am a new member I cannot post images. I assume because the forum had a problem with spammers.

 

[CopticChristian]

No, no. You are asking me to prove what I believe to be true and you believe false. At least give evidence why you believ it to be false. I gave mine why it’s true.

There is no proof for your position. I don’t have to prove that the UN is not an instrument of God. I believe it.

 

[Swc651]

I agree with you regarding the UN, I don’t know why people think UN acted on the will of God in creating the state of Israel. UN is full of aetheists, Bhuddists, Shintoists, Bahais, Hindus, Taoists, Sikhists and other 4,200 religions according to Wikipedia.

Is God unable or unwilling to use non-Christians to achieve goals?

Why does someone being of a different faith raise an automatic presumption that they are not instruments of God? How do you know that their faiths do not follow God? Could they be the same as you but simply using a different label?

Also, our support of Israel probably has something to do with witness the horror of religious dogmatism and intolerance.

 

[CopticChristian]

Swc651:

Is God unable or unwilling to use non-Christians to achieve goals?

You may want to look at the OT, in many and various ways God spoke to us through Prophets in part and in these last days He spoke to us through His Son…and there is one Gentile King Cyrus that God used for what…?

Now I agree with you and it has been said before…

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” **20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? **

Why does someone being of a different faith raise an automatic presumption that they are not instruments of God? How do you know that their faiths do not follow God? Could they be the same as you but simply using a different label?

Do those that support the LGBT agenda qualify as instruments of God?

Also, our support of Israel probably has something to do with witness the horror of religious dogmatism and intolerance.

What it has to do with now has less to do with at its inception, British Evangelicals, John Nelson Darby and the UN.

 

[luthier93]

Only fundamentalists and evangelicals demand “Biblical proof” for everything under the sun…while providing none for many of thier beliefs or traditions. They use the Bible as it was never intended to be used. As a how-to book, a crystal ball, even a financial planner. But that’s another thread.
Declaring God “used the UN” to “create” Israel is very dangerous. You and I are not God. To assume you know what God is thinking or planning, using a Book you have no authority to interpret, is the height of arrorgance.
What scares me is the extent I see many evangelicals going to protect-support the modern nation of Israel. Many appear to have crossed over to actually worshipping Israel. Just turn on TBN to see that. I fear many are going over into complete apostasy in thier obsession with the modern state of Israel. See John Hagee wearing Jewish priest vestments. The same guy who would condemn Catholic priests wearing vestments.
Since I am a new member I cannot post images. I assume because the forum had a problem with spammers.

It’s dangerous to categorize someone. I am neither a fundamentalist nor an evangelical. And there is good reason for asking for biblical proof (see Acts 17- Paul commends the Bereans for this behavior). It is not dangerous nor going beyond my ability to interpret to say that current events have been foretold by God. It’s also within my ability to hazard an assumption that it may have been God’s plan:doh2:. What’s really dangerous is the fact that you believe something to be the case simply because you do not believe it to be the case, sort of a position by default. You doubters: state WHY you believe the modern state of Israel is NOT part of God’s plan. I have, and others who believe similarly, have stated why we believe it is part of God’s plan.

 

[Jotto]

It’s dangerous to categorize someone. I am neither a fundamentalist nor an evangelical. And there is good reason for asking for biblical proof (see Acts 17- Paul commends the Bereans for this behavior). It is not dangerous nor going beyond my ability to interpret to say that current events have been foretold by God. It’s also within my ability to hazard an assumption that it may have been God’s plan:doh2:. What’s really dangerous is the fact that you believe something to be the case simply because you do not believe it to be the case, sort of a position by default. You doubters: state WHY you believe the modern state of Israel is NOT part of God’s plan. I have, and others who believe similarly, have stated why we believe it is part of God’s plan.

It seems to me that you are both right. To simply identify the founding of the State of Israel as the fulfillment of prophesy and the will of God with all the suffering and destruction that founding brought upon the people who had been living in that land does not seem compatible the understanding of God that we Christians have received in the person of Christ Jesus. But neither should we as Christians dismiss that the Holy One is deeply involved in that whole situation.

Historically Israel has attempted (and is attempting) to gather unto itself as much land as possible with as few Arabs as possible. That attempt is failing as, despite having caused the greatest number of people to become refugees in modern history, the Arab people dwelling within Israel and within the West Bank and Gaza are slowly but surely out birthing the Jewish people living there despite all the immigration of Jews that has occurred over the past 90 or so years.

That means that the day is coming when Israel will have to choose whether to remain a democracy in which case she will cease to be a state where Jews have privileges that non-Jews do not have. Or she will have to attempt to continue as a minority militarily controlling and dominating a majority of people living there not unlike South Africa attempted to do. The easiest way to have avoided this dilemma would have been for the State of Israel to have opted for a two-state solution. While it appears that Israel did indeed attempt to do this several times, a closer look at those supposed offer reveals that after 1967 no real or viable offer was actually made to the Palestinians.

So now Israel is going to have to continue the eventually self-defeating course which eventually even the United States will no longer be able to support. Or she and her Arab populace will have to learn to live together justly in peace. That is a tall order for both peoples. But from a Christian point of view that is what God, as we know him, is indeed moving these peoples towards for is not the unity of humankind into one living Body always the goal of God’s ongoing creativity? And if this is the case, clearly the mission of the Church, both the Church inside of Israel and in the West Bank and in Gaza as well as here in the United States, Europe and the rest of the world, is to do all that we can to move these two peoples towards such a reconciliation.

There are a good many of our Jewish sisters and brothers who think this impossible. And there are not a few Christians who are convinced that it is impossible for any non-Muslim people to create a peaceful and just society where Muslim people are in the majority. But what seems impossible to us humans is well within the capability of the Word and Spirit of our Creator. Let us regard this situation in the light of that truth and live accordingly.

 

[Marianne_Ph]

I jumped into this to learn why my friend is supporting Israel. Forgive me if I am repeating what has already been discussed in this thread. This is her quote on a fundraiser invitation for a safe house in that country that she supports financially:

‘“Israel was chosen as the nation to bring blessings to the world. We are called to reciprocally to support and bless Israel. As we bless Israel, God will bless us (Genesis 12:3).”’ I cannot match that in my Bible.

She attends a “Messianic-Christian” church. I do not know what that is. She said they study the Old Testament. Don’t Catholics study O.T. by reading the O.T. at Mass and paralleling the reading with New Testament Scripture?

I see some postings by “Messianic” faith contributors on this thread. Maybe some of you can enlighten us. I would like to learn more in an attempt to clarify our similarities and differences.

I, like others on this thread, thought Christ was the New Covenant replacement for the Old. Two of many sitings in Scripture:
Jeremiah 31
'Look, the days are coming, Yahweh declares, when I shall make a new covenant with the House of Israel [and the House of Judah]"
Matthew 26
“…for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

So how do Catholic views of the Old and New Testament and “Messianic Christian” views differ? That understanding might help to know why some people think Christians are called to support Israel. Many thanks.

 

[504Katrin]

Jeremiah refers to the messianic era, though. Just saying because maybe you want to consider the possibility that Jeremiahs’ prophecy has nothing to do with Matthiew 26 and “the covenant” that Jesus was quoted for in Matthiew 26.