Protestant view of Israel.

[CopticChristian]

We were “chosen” for neither. Rather, we were chosen to make the One G-d known to the world, and it seems we have done so through Christianity and Islam as well as Judaism. However, this purpose or mission has little to do with the Jewish concept of the Messiah and has everything to do with the Eternal Covenant that the Jewish people via Moses received from G-d at Mount Sinai.

Meltz,

I agree with this point of view as a view that should be recognized and believe we should agree that neither reason for choosing is valid to either of us in the context of your position as presented.

 

[scipio337]

With all due respect this narrative is simplistic and makes no sense. The history is far more complicated.
The fate of Jews in European countries, mainly in Eastern Europe, was filled with persecutions, killings and burnings The Jews were forced to live in closed ghettos, particularly in the Russian Empire. The earliest Zionists, calling themselves “Hovevei Zion” (Lovers of Zion), started the first settlements in Palestine in the 1840’s.
Fast forward to 1916, after there had been an agreement with the British Government that after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Palestine, Lebanon and Syria would gain independence, leaders of the Arab communities called upon every Arab Muslim, Christian and Jew to rise against the Ottomans. Many did.
The promise was not kept.
The film “Lawrence of Arabia” dramatized it quite well.
Lord Balfour wrote in 1919:

So, in actual fact, the mess that exists today in the Middle-East is the result of broken promises, spearheaded by the very countries that caused it: Britian and the United States.
Broken promises have consequences.

Are you claiming Lebanon, and Syria aren’t now independent?

“Palestine” was granted independence, too. We call it “Jordan”.

 

[Jotto]

That is a laugh. Arab Christianity is being destroyed, not by Israel, but by the likes of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.

Various Christian denominations are doing o.k. within the state of Israel; but in the West Bank they are struggling. The main problem is the political and economic limitations put upon them as Arabs by the occupying Israeli Defense Force and Israeli settlers. There is some tension between Christians and their Muslim neighbors; but Palestinian Christians and Muslims have a long, long history of co-existence in the Holy Land. If Israel were to stop forcing them out of a large portion of the West Bank (Area C) and allow their economy to flourish once again, the inter-religious tensions that now exist would ease and there would be peace there.

PS It is not possible to speak of a “Protestant view of Israel.” There are varied view among Protestants just as among Roman Catholics. That portion of Evangelicals known as “Christian Zionists” strongly support current Israeli government policies. Those Protestants that have established Arab populated churches there, namely the Episcopalians and the Lutherans tend to be very critical of current Israeli policies as are most Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church members who are for the most part are also Arabic people.

 

[504Katrin]

Various Christian denominations are doing o.k. within the state of Israel; but in the West Bank they are struggling. The main problem is the political and economic limitations put upon them as Arabs by the occupying Israeli Defense Force and Israeli settlers. There is some tension between Christians and their Muslim neighbors; but Palestinian Christians and Muslims have a long, long history of co-existence in the Holy Land. If Israel were to stop forcing them out of a large portion of the West Bank (Area C) and allow their economy to flourish once again, the inter-religious tensions that now exist would ease and there would be peace there.

PS It is not possible to speak of a “Protestant view of Israel.” There are varied view among Protestants just as among Roman Catholics. That portion of Evangelicals known as “Christian Zionists” strongly support current Israeli government policies. Those Protestants that have established Arab populated churches there, namely the Episcopalians and the Lutherans tend to be very critical of current Israeli policies as are most Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church members who are for the most part are also Arabic people.

What I find funny is that on the person level everyone gets along just great! I even talk to Muslims (women) in the street that I first meet there. Couple of my neighbors are Muslims, too. I’ve never heard of anyone who had ever had trouble with a Muslim and I know a lot of people. It’s the political level where there’s trouble and all sorts of zores and even hartred maybe. It’s weird.

 

[CopticChristian]

Various Christian denominations are doing o.k. within the state of Israel; but in the West Bank they are struggling. The main problem is the political and economic limitations put upon them as Arabs by the occupying Israeli Defense Force and Israeli settlers. There is some tension between Christians and their Muslim neighbors; but Palestinian Christians and Muslims have a long, long history of co-existence in the Holy Land. If Israel were to stop forcing them out of a large portion of the West Bank (Area C) and allow their economy to flourish once again, the inter-religious tensions that now exist would ease and there would be peace there.

PS It is not possible to speak of a “Protestant view of Israel.” There are varied view among Protestants just as among Roman Catholics. That portion of Evangelicals known as “Christian Zionists” strongly support current Israeli government policies. Those Protestants that have established Arab populated churches there, namely the Episcopalians and the Lutherans tend to be very critical of current Israeli policies as are most Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church members who are for the most part are also Arabic people.

Is it safe to say that within Israel there is no history of a Protestant View of Israel from the year 10-1800?

 

[meltzerboy]

What I find funny is that on the person level everyone gets along just great! I even talk to Muslims (women) in the street that I first meet there. Couple of my neighbors are Muslims, too. I’ve never heard of anyone who had ever had trouble with a Muslim and I know a lot of people. It’s the political level where there’s trouble and all sorts of zores and even hartred maybe. It’s weird.

It’s usually that way, I think. On a personal level, once people get to know each other, they generally get along just fine. It’s the leaders of governments and politics that mess up everything.

 

[504Katrin]

It’s usually that way, I think. On a personal level, once people get to know each other, they generally get along just fine. It’s the leaders of governments and politics that mess up everything.

True, I agree with you.

 

[Diplomat]

Some believe that the modern state of Israel is somehow deeply involved in the " end times prophecies", It is not so, the modern state of Israel is not the subject of the prophecies, it was the biblical Israel that was. The modern state is not an extension of biblical Israel, it is not the ancient state reborn, it was created by men in United Nations. God urged Israel to repent and also said that a remnant of the nation would return, this was already fulfilled many centuries ago under Ezra and Nehemiah.Ancient Israel was established and given the Law of Moses, but the Law of Moses is no longer in force today (Gal 3:19-29, 4:21-31, Eph 2:14-16, Col 2:14-15, Rom 7:14) when the remnant of Israel returned 5 centuries before Christ, the Law of Moses was still in force ( Ezra 7:10) It is that re-establishment of biblical Israel that fulfilled the prophecies, not the modern state.Modern Israel has no temple listed in Kings 8:1-10, this was destroyed in their captivity and rebuilt 5 centuries before Christ, Ancient Israel had a priesthood taken out of the descendants of Levi, this was restored 5 centuries before Christ, thus fulfilling the prophecy, modern Israel has no such prophecies. In ancient Israel there were clear tribal identities, modern Israel has none, the modern citizens of Israel came from non-biblical lands such as Russia, Germany, and other European counties.

 

[CopticChristian]

Some believe that the modern state of Israel is somehow deeply involved in the " end times prophecies", It is not so, the modern state of Israel is not the subject of the prophecies, it was the biblical Israel that was. The modern state is not an extension of biblical Israel, it is not the ancient state reborn, it was created by men in United Nations. God urged Israel to repent and also said that a remnant of the nation would return, this was already fulfilled many centuries ago under Ezra and Nehemiah.Ancient Israel was established and given the Law of Moses, but the Law of Moses is no longer in force today (Gal 3:19-29, 4:21-31, Eph 2:14-16, Col 2:14-15, Rom 7:14) when the remnant of Israel returned 5 centuries before Christ, the Law of Moses was still in force ( Ezra 7:10) It is that re-establishment of biblical Israel that fulfilled the prophecies, not the modern state.Modern Israel has no temple listed in Kings 8:1-10, this was destroyed in their captivity and rebuilt 5 centuries before Christ, Ancient Israel had a priesthood taken out of the descendants of Levi, this was restored 5 centuries before Christ, thus fulfilling the prophecy, modern Israel has no such prophecies. In ancient Israel there were clear tribal identities, modern Israel has none, the modern citizens of Israel came from non-biblical lands such as Russia, Germany, and other European counties.

Well there you go with an understanding of the Protestant View of Israel…

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Some believe that the modern state of Israel is somehow deeply involved in the " end times prophecies", It is not so, the modern state of Israel is not the subject of the prophecies, it was the biblical Israel that was. The modern state is not an extension of biblical Israel, it is not the ancient state reborn, it was created by men in United Nations. God urged Israel to repent and also said that a remnant of the nation would return, this was already fulfilled many centuries ago under Ezra and Nehemiah.Ancient Israel was established and given the Law of Moses, but the Law of Moses is no longer in force today (Gal 3:19-29, 4:21-31, Eph 2:14-16, Col 2:14-15, Rom 7:14) when the remnant of Israel returned 5 centuries before Christ, the Law of Moses was still in force ( Ezra 7:10) It is that re-establishment of biblical Israel that fulfilled the prophecies, not the modern state.Modern Israel has no temple listed in Kings 8:1-10, this was destroyed in their captivity and rebuilt 5 centuries before Christ, Ancient Israel had a priesthood taken out of the descendants of Levi, this was restored 5 centuries before Christ, thus fulfilling the prophecy, modern Israel has no such prophecies. In ancient Israel there were clear tribal identities, modern Israel has none, the modern citizens of Israel came from non-biblical lands such as Russia, Germany, and other European counties.

I could not have said this better. I agree 100%

 

[luthier93]

There you go misleading…here is what the OP stated…

Show me where the OP asks for a Prostestant view of Israel to be explained by Protestants excusively.

Ah, there you go misleading. It does not ask for the Protestant view to be explained by Protestants only. But what you and the other poster are not doing is explaining the Protestant view. Rather, you are explaining the Catholic view and arguing with the Protestant view.

 

[luthier93]

As a Protestant you are fallible and subject to error. I cannot agree.
Well then, you won’t believe this, but there was this guy named John Nelson Darby that invented this same thinking long ago around the turn of the century and he was wrong as well. So as not to be misled, you cannot lead.

You seem to forget that you also are subject to error. If you indeed believe you are not, I’m wasting my time discussing with you since you are puffed with pride. Moreover, it is not I who said those words but God Himself. Is He subject to error?

 

[luthier93]

Why even quote me if you are not going to address the post? You just reiterate your “talking points”.
First of all, your first sentence makes no sense. Christianity came from from Judiasm so therefore Judism is Christianity? Is that the Gospel according to John Hagee? First time I ever heard that.
Second, you seem to think that modern Jews and Arabs are “pure blood” without any mixture of other ethnic bloodlines. That’s an interesting, if anthropological impossibility.
Thirdly, throwing out Bible verses and stories does not in any way support or even address the point.
Why not address the post instead of lapsing back into your talking points?

You either didn’t read my response, didn’t read it with your previous post, or just made up what you thought I was saying. Even other posters noticed.
What I said (in context) was that it WAS Christian to believe in the return of the Jews to Israel. Unless you have forgotten history, you should be aware that the only reason there are non-jewish Christians is because many Jews rejected Jesus. But “salvation come from the Jews” as Paul says, not from the Christians.
Many Protestants (in fact most that I know) believe similarly to you in that the “Church” replaces the Jewish people. That’s not the case. Rather, as Paul says, the Gentile believers are grafted into the House of Israel (and I would suggest that they are therefore Israelites inasmuch as Ephraim and Manasheh, sons of an Egyptian mother, were Israelites).

 

[luthier93]

In my experience with Messianic Jews, it became clear to me that their view of God’s everlasting promises to the people of Israel came less from Protestant Dispensational teaching and more from the Jewish teaching that God’s promises are ongoing.

I haven’t followed what luthier said in every post, so I’m not commenting on his posts. I just intend to point out that there is more than one source of the belief that the Jews are meant by God to return to the land of Israel.

Thank you for your post. I appreciate the fact that someone here reads and attempts to understand without assuming that one follows a particular teacher. As Paul said, we should not say “I follow Apollos” or “I follow Paul” or “I follow Aquinas” or any other man.

 

[meltzerboy]

You either didn’t read my response, didn’t read it with your previous post, or just made up what you thought I was saying. Even other posters noticed.
What I said (in context) was that it WAS Christian to believe in the return of the Jews to Israel. Unless you have forgotten history, you should be aware that the only reason there are non-jewish Christians is because many Jews rejected Jesus. But “salvation come from the Jews” as Paul says, not from the Christians.
Many Protestants (in fact most that I know) believe similarly to you in that the “Church” replaces the Jewish people. That’s not the case. Rather, as Paul says, the Gentile believers are grafted into the House of Israel (and I would suggest that they are therefore Israelites inasmuch as Ephraim and Manasheh, sons of an Egyptian mother, were Israelites).

Is the ONLY reason there are non-Jewish Christians because many Jews rejected Jesus? I thought that non-Jews (Gentiles) were also evangelized by Paul and others and became Christians without having to first convert to Judaism.

 

[luthier93]

Coptic–

You are the one who was talking about the Messianic Jewish belief that Jews are meant to return to the land of Israel. I was trying to point out–pretty clearly, I thought—that this belief has its earliest origin in Judaism. And, I said that from my experience —listening to speakers and reading books by Messianics over a period of around 7 years—that it was clear to me that they were drawing this belief from Judaism more so than from any form of Dispensationalism.

I, as a Christian, am not a dispensationalist; but, I believe God has promised to return the Jewish people to the land of Israel and never again uproot them. Whether that has happened already only time will tell. I believe it likely that it has happened.

Exactly. We agree fully here. God has definitely promised that Israel will return to the land.
Now, they have returned…can anyone give me a reason why this isn’t fulfilled prophecy? Or explain why the prophecies would not come true? It’s not easy.

 

[luthier93]

Is the ONLY reason there are non-Jewish Christians because many Jews rejected Jesus? I thought that non-Jews (Gentiles) were also evangelized by Paul and others and became Christians without having to first convert to Judaism.

Exactly. Remember, though, why the Gentile Christians were evangelized?
Jesus says clearly to the Samaritan woman who asks for her son’s healing that He came for the salvation of the Jews: “It is not right to take the children’s food and toss it to their pet dogs.” And yet, “the builders rejected” Him. So then, Jesus met Paul and told him that he would send him to the Gentiles.
Also remember the story of Cornelius. Peter’s vision causes him to realize that it was not really about food, but rather that God was giving Gentiles the opportunity to believe and be saved.
Now, to be fair, it is not the only reason that there may be non-jewish believers, such as Ruth. But the reason why Gentiles as a whole were given the opportunity to be saved was because the Jews rejected the promise.

 

[meltzerboy]

Exactly. We agree fully here. God has definitely promised that Israel will return to the land.
Now, they have returned…can anyone give me a reason why this isn’t fulfilled prophecy? Or explain why the prophecies would not come true? It’s not easy.

Jews are divided on this. Most support Israel, whether or not they think its establishment as a Jewish State is an indication of the beginning of the fulfillment of prophecy. However, a minority, mainly the Satmar Hasidic movement (who recently held a demonstration, largely unreported by the media), maintain that only the Messiah at the end of days is meant to usher in the return of the Jewish people to their homeland. And some Reform Jews, for their own liberally chic reasons without much belief in a Messiah, protest that Israel is a political state only that is subjugating the Palestinian people.

 

[luthier93]

Some believe that the modern state of Israel is somehow deeply involved in the " end times prophecies", It is not so, the modern state of Israel is not the subject of the prophecies, it was the biblical Israel that was. The modern state is not an extension of biblical Israel, it is not the ancient state reborn, it was created by men in United Nations. God urged Israel to repent and also said that a remnant of the nation would return, this was already fulfilled many centuries ago under Ezra and Nehemiah.Ancient Israel was established and given the Law of Moses, but the Law of Moses is no longer in force today (Gal 3:19-29, 4:21-31, Eph 2:14-16, Col 2:14-15, Rom 7:14) when the remnant of Israel returned 5 centuries before Christ, the Law of Moses was still in force ( Ezra 7:10) It is that re-establishment of biblical Israel that fulfilled the prophecies, not the modern state.Modern Israel has no temple listed in Kings 8:1-10, this was destroyed in their captivity and rebuilt 5 centuries before Christ, Ancient Israel had a priesthood taken out of the descendants of Levi, this was restored 5 centuries before Christ, thus fulfilling the prophecy, modern Israel has no such prophecies. In ancient Israel there were clear tribal identities, modern Israel has none, the modern citizens of Israel came from non-biblical lands such as Russia, Germany, and other European counties.

1, the state of Israel may be a UN institution. There was good reason for it since no other area in the world would take the Jews fleeing from Hitler’s Nazis. Even so, it may be a fulfillment of prophecy. But the land and the people are not UN institutions and still remain Israel.
2, the Law of Moses is not done away with (Jesus said he did not come abolish the law or remove a singe jot or tittle)
3, the prophecy was fulfilled before Christ because one of the requirements for the fulfillment of the prophecy would be that it was in the “acharit hayamim” (last days) and that the Messiah would have come and would comfort His people. Therefore, it cannot have been fulfilled yet.

 

[luthier93]

Jews are divided on this. Most support Israel, whether or not they think its establishment as a Jewish State is an indication of the beginning of the fulfillment of prophecy. However, a minority, mainly the Satmar Hasidic movement (who recently held a demonstration, largely unreported by the media), maintain that only the Messiah at the end of days is meant to usher in the return of the Jewish people to their homeland. And some Reform Jews, for their own liberally chic reasons without much belief in a Messiah, protest that Israel is a political state only that is subjugating the Palestinian people.

Exactly, and that’s where we can have a difference of opinion and it’s fine. I personally think it’s a prophetic fulfillment because it fits the prophecy.