Protestant view of Israel.

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian,

In regards to your question, wouldn’t you say each diocese has its own boundaries??

In regards to modern day Israel, the nuns told us in grade school…this is the 50’s, man, that ‘the Bible said the Jews would return to Israel some day’, and they are still working out its boundaries.

The Hebrew Catholics believe some day, and Scripture says the conversion of the Jews is reserved for the Last Days, that they will be of great help to us some day…

KG,

The Church is visible and invisible and yes that which is visible has boundaries not to indicate that the Kingdom has boundaries.

I knew a nun that knew Judo and I have a brown belt in Judo…who knows what the nuns think.

Beliefs abound and as long as they do not contradict the deposit of Faith…amen…

 

[Christian_Unity]

Hey Everyone,
I’ve been curious as to why a lot* of Protestants seem to be really into the country/people of Israel. I’m assuming this is because they are (they were?) the chosen people.

Can anyone explain why they think of them as so important now? I mean, aren’t Catholics really the continuation of the chosen people?

Thanks!

*maybe it’s just the protestants i know that think this way.

I think Romans chapter 2, and Romans chapters 8 through 11 explain my view of the nation of Israel. The elect Israelites together with the elect Gentiles are His chosen people. BTW, I am Protestant too.

 

[Christian_Unity]

KG,

The Church is visible and invisible and yes that which is visible has boundaries not to indicate that the Kingdom has boundaries.

I knew a nun that knew Judo and I have a brown belt in Judo…who knows what the nuns think.

Beliefs abound and as long as they do not contradict the deposit of Faith…amen…

I thought the visible and invisible concept of the church was a Protestant distinctive?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through
their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2011&version=ESV

 

[KathleenGee]

Coptic Christian…the Church is the New Israel, and it is at essence the Bride of Christ. She is mystical. Yes, she has both visible and invisible boundaries and her life source is none other than the Glorified Lord in heaven.

God hardened their (Jews’) hearts so that all may be saved. If not, we would have had a more Hebrew rite Church, and not have the fullness of universality that we see today…and is indicated on another thread of Christian Unity’s in regards to his questions about the different religious orders and congregations, that were lucidly continued with the different rites and jurisdictions of Eastern churches.

There are those Jews today as of yesterday that have rejected God and taken on the life of idolatry…and ancient prophets referred to them as Babylon. I am referring back to this excellent recent article by Monsignor Pope. Likewise, we have Catholics who have compromised their faith with the world we so present today. Then there are those who had a Christian upbringing, had some belief, but later rejected God and persecute Christians and human beings in general.

John Paul II referred to the Jewish believers as ‘our big brothers’. I have had a number of Jewish clients and always immediately experience a resonance of being with them. The religious Jews relate the same way to God as Catholics, we recognize God’s presence in all good of creation, including man’s ability to reason, to think as well as be spiritual. We relate to God as the center of our lives, whereas Protestants look up to God to seek His will. Surely all seek His will, but in a different manner of relating.

Judaism and Christianity are the two lamp posts, and yes, we await this ongoing ingrafting of the two. I believe when that communion comes, the Church of God will most exemplify this New Jerusalem, and it will be fulfilled after Christ comes in glory…to make all of creation new.

Catholics believe we are saved - by grace - of faith freely given by Christ. And this has been taught long before the Reformation. It is a matter of semantics and indoctrination to think otherwise.

 

[CopticChristian]

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through
their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2011&version=ESV

CU,

And your understanding of this is what?

To prove what point?

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian…the Church is the New Israel, and it is at essence the Bride of Christ. She is mystical. Yes, she has both visible and invisible boundaries and her life source is none other than the Glorified Lord in heaven.

God hardened their (Jews’) hearts so that all may be saved. If not, we would have had a more Hebrew rite Church, and not have the fullness of universality that we see today…and is indicated on another thread of Christian Unity’s in regards to his questions about the different religious orders and congregations, that were lucidly continued with the different rites and jurisdictions of Eastern churches.

There are those Jews today as of yesterday that have rejected God and taken on the life of idolatry…and ancient prophets referred to them as Babylon. I am referring back to this excellent recent article by Monsignor Pope. Likewise, we have Catholics who have compromised their faith with the world we so present today. Then there are those who had a Christian upbringing, had some belief, but later rejected God and persecute Christians and human beings in general.

John Paul II referred to the Jewish believers as ‘our big brothers’. I have had a number of Jewish clients and always immediately experience a resonance of being with them. The religious Jews relate the same way to God as Catholics, we recognize God’s presence in all good of creation, including man’s ability to reason, to think as well as be spiritual. We relate to God as the center of our lives, whereas Protestants look up to God to seek His will. Surely all seek His will, but in a different manner of relating.

Judaism and Christianity are the two lamp posts, and yes, we await this ongoing ingrafting of the two. I believe when that communion comes, the Church of God will most exemplify this New Jerusalem, and it will be fulfilled after Christ comes in glory…to make all of creation new.

Catholics believe we are saved - by grace - of faith freely given by Christ. And this has been taught long before the Reformation. It is a matter of semantics and indoctrination to think otherwise.

KG,

I agree.

Catholic Christianity is pretty Jewish if you look at the OT foreshadowed the New…

Paul,it is said did not so much undergo a conversion as the scales fell from his eyes to see the OT as seen in the proper light…and thus he explains it…

The NT contains explanation and quotes of the NT with a different understanding.

The sin offerings by the Levites/Temple were replaced by One offering/One Priest

The Passover meal foreshadowed the Mass.

Circumcision foreshadowed Baptism

The people of God are the people of God…

The essence of the Kingdom is based on the Kingdom of Israel…

King of Israel…David wanted to be priest King…Jesus is Priest/King

Queen Mother/Mary

Chief Steward/Pope holding the keys…

The Jews of the Old Covenant foreshadowed the New Covenant…

We are pretty Jewish if you ask me…

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

And your understanding of this is what?

To prove what point?

Hey Everyone,
I’ve been curious as to why a lot* of Protestants seem to be really into the country/people of Israel. I’m assuming this is because they are (they were?) the chosen people.

Can anyone explain why they think of them as so important now? I mean, aren’t Catholics really the continuation of the chosen people?

Thanks!

*maybe it’s just the protestants i know that think this way.

I’m just trying to give my Protestant two cents worth to the thread topic as requested. I don’t put a lot of weight with newspaper exegesis about Israel like many Protestants seem to do. Romans 11 answers the question about who are the chosen people. My view of the thread topic is found in Romans chapter 2 and Romans chapters 8 through 11. The true Israelite has been circumcised of the heart, or has been baptized in the Spirit and not necessarily one who has experience the sacraments by the hands of men.

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. – Rom 2

 

[Christian_Unity]

KG,

The Church is visible and invisible and yes that which is visible has boundaries not to indicate that the Kingdom has boundaries…

I thought the visible and invisible concept of the church was a Protestant distinctive?

reformationtheology.com/2006/05/the_visible_vs_the_invisible_c.php

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m just trying to give my Protestant two cents worth to the thread topic as requested. I don’t put a lot of weight with newspaper exegesis about Israel like many Protestants seem to do. Romans 11 answers the question about who are the chosen people. My view of the thread topic is found in Romans chapter 2 and Romans chapters 8 through 11. The true Israelite has been circumcised of the heart, or has been baptized in the Spirit and not necessarily one who has experience the sacraments by the hands of men.

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. – Rom 2

CU,

Paul wrote the book not from 11 to 2 and 8-11…what are you saying here?

 

[CopticChristian]

reformationtheology.com/2006/05/the_visible_vs_the_invisible_c.php

CU,

You realize that from the beginning of the establishment of the visible Church, since the Church was the mystery hidden for all ages now made known there have been attacks…

Attacks on Jesus…as the Gnostics, Arians and Nestorians attacked the divinity and unity of the God man and the Church answered…

here what you have presented is what you call reformed but in fact is another attack on the Body of Christ the Church…a man made definition that resembles earlier disordered thinking like the Gnostics, Arians and Nestorians…and here is the Church that preceeded so called Reformed theology…of man…not of God and says…

The Church - both visible and spiritual

771 "The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, the community of faith, hope, and charity, as a visible organization through which he communicates truth and grace to all men."184 The Church is at the same time:

• a "society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ;

• the visible society and the spiritual community;

• the earthly Church and the Church endowed with heavenly riches."185

These dimensions together constitute “one complex reality which comes together from a human and a divine element”:186

The Church is essentially both human and divine, visible but endowed with invisible realities, zealous in action and dedicated to contemplation, present in the world, but as a pilgrim, so constituted that in her the human is directed toward and subordinated to the divine, the visible to the invisible, action to contemplation, and this present world to that city yet to come, the object of our quest.187

O humility! O sublimity! Both tabernacle of cedar and sanctuary of God; earthly dwelling and celestial palace; house of clay and royal hall; body of death and temple of light; and at last both object of scorn to the proud and bride of Christ! She is black but beautiful, O daughters of Jerusalem, for even if the labor and pain of her long exile may have discolored her, yet heaven’s beauty has adorned her.188

 

[Dolezal]

Hey Everyone,
I’ve been curious as to why a lot* of Protestants seem to be really into the country/people of Israel.

It is hard to see why, from a Scriptural point of view. The promise of land has already been fulfilled and is therefore not any more in effect (Joshua 21:45, Kings 1, 8:56, Nehemiah 9:7-8).

I mean, aren’t Catholics really the continuation of the chosen people?

Yes, the Mosaic covenant has been revoked (Corinthians 3, for example), and all the promises of Abraham’s covenant have been fulfilled, except for its salvific promises which became the new covenant (Galatians 3-4, Romans 4). The Jews are therefore not the chosen people and the Church has never taught such a thing. Gentiles and Jews who accept the new covenant and become members of the Church are the chosen people. St. Peter calls them “a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people. Who in times past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy: but now have obtained mercy.”

 

[CopticChristian]

It is hard to see why, from a Scriptural point of view. The promise of land has already been fulfilled and is therefore not any more in effect (Joshua 21:45, Kings 1, 8:56, Nehemiah 9:7-8).

Yes, the Mosaic covenant has been revoked (Corinthians 3, for example), and all the promises of Abraham’s covenant have been fulfilled, except for its salvific promises which became the new covenant (Galatians 3-4, Romans 4). The Jews are therefore not the chosen people and the Church has never taught such a thing. Gentiles and Jews who accept the new covenant and become members of the Church are the chosen people. St. Peter calls them “a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people. Who in times past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy: but now have obtained mercy.”

Do,

I am not sure what you are saying about Corinthians 3 but Paul makes the point in Romans 7 that the Old Covenant has died like a spouse…and the Covenant is fulfilled in Christ so that rather than being tied to something dead as in marriage you are free to marry the New Covenant…not revoked, fulfilled and no longer necessary.

1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

  4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

You realize that from the beginning of the establishment of the visible Church, since the Church was the mystery hidden for all ages now made known there have been attacks…

Attacks on Jesus…as the Gnostics, Arians and Nestorians attacked the divinity and unity of the God man and the Church answered…

here what you have presented is what you call reformed but in fact is another attack on the Body of Christ the Church…a man made definition that resembles earlier disordered thinking like the Gnostics, Arians and Nestorians…and here is the Church that preceeded so called Reformed theology…of man…not of God and says…

For the sake of Christian unity and the cause of Christ, I will simply disagree agreeably with you on this issue.

 

[KathleenGee]

John Paul II said that we are all fulfilled Jews.

Folks should check out Roy Shoeman’s www.salvationisfromthejews.com.

He is Jewish. He said he is now more Jewish entering into the New Jerusalem than before, and is also a member of Hebrew Catholics. I like to study their ecclesiology from their cultural and ethnic lineage.

They also laugh at the Gentile Catholics at Mass…they can already envision Christ’s dialogue and interaction with His Jewish people…the nuances…that go over our head.

It has been said that Christ had demonstrated a sense of humor, but must admit, I find His words very sobering, and not very funny.

The Jewish Hebrew Catholics say that when you have 2 Jews together, you have 3 debates…

 

[KathleenGee]

Or may be 3 arguing…between 2 people…??..

 

[KathleenGee]

And if you are among priests at one of their chapter meetings…and they are Italian, they are all talking and shouting at once with their grievances and how each one thinks the Word of God should be put into practice with the circumstances they are working with.

You ask if any body can understand what is being said…it happened to me once…and one friar said with a happy face, 'Oh, we all understand each other."

 

[cajunhillbilly]

If you want to read a different understanding on Israel from a Protestant read “The Puritan Hope” by Ian Murray. It sounds a lot like what I just read on the website salvationisfromthejews referenced above.

 

[Dolezal]

Do,

I am not sure what you are saying about Corinthians 3 but Paul makes the point in Romans 7 that the Old Covenant has died like a spouse…and the Covenant is fulfilled in Christ so that rather than being tied to something dead as in marriage you are free to marry the New Covenant…not revoked, fulfilled and no longer necessary.

Sorry, I meant 2 Corinthians 3, when I said that the Mosaic covenant has been revoked:

"5 Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, 6* who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

“10 Indeed, in this case, what once had splendor has come to have no splendor at all, because of the splendor that surpasses it. 11 For if what faded away came with splendor, what is permanent must have much more splendor. 12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor. 14 **But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. **15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; 16 but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.”

Also, Galatians 4:

“24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; * she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.”

The Church has never taught otherwise.

 

[CopticChristian]

Sorry, I meant 2 Corinthians 3, when I said that the Mosaic covenant has been revoked:

"5 Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, 6* who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

“10 Indeed, in this case, what once had splendor has come to have no splendor at all, because of the splendor that surpasses it. 11 For if what faded away came with splendor, what is permanent must have much more splendor. 12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor. 14 **But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. **15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; 16 but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.”

Also, Galatians 4:

“24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; * she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.”

The Church has never taught otherwise.

Do,

How do you get revoked out of faded?