Protestant view of Israel.

[luthier93]

Lu,

What is clear is that you are taking the Bible and suggesting what it means. Whatever it is you read and find instances of it is your interpretation and what you see. You have not told me how you know what God sees.

That passage says; “Jesus saw their faith and said: ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’” And you tell me that is my interpretation of it ( and therefore imply it is not to be trusted)? That is definitely not my interpretation, those are the words of the Bible. And by the way, since you called me out about answering questions on a catholic forum, how come you, a coptic catholic, are posting on a forum post about what Protestants think about the Land of Israel? Does that not seem hypocritical? Not to mention that you are causing arguments instead of a civil discussion by ridiculing those who post (and not just me, but others on the forum).

 

[sophion]

It is interesting that people are so supportive of Israel, especially considering that the rise of Israel has been accompanied by the simultaneous fall of Arab Christianity.

Arab Christianity fell 1400 years ago.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian-
I understand that you may view it as such. However, it is very clear in the Bible that faith is what saves. **Grace does not save, **but is rather given to one is saved through faith.
cf. Matthew 9:2 where Jesus Christ says that the paralyzed man’s sins are forgiven because of faith. There are many other instances also.

Lu,

Your thoughts are interesting. You may want to speak to Paul about grace not saving.

For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast"

 

[CopticChristian]

That passage says; “Jesus saw their faith and said: ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’” And you tell me that is my interpretation of it ( and therefore imply it is not to be trusted)? That is definitely not my interpretation, those are the words of the Bible. And by the way, since you called me out about answering questions on a catholic forum, how come you, a coptic catholic, are posting on a forum post about what Protestants think about the Land of Israel? Does that not seem hypocritical? Not to mention that you are causing arguments instead of a civil discussion by ridiculing those who post (and not just me, but others on the forum).

Lu,

Thank you for taking the time to dialogue with me…I shall be gracious…you say…

That passage says; “Jesus saw their faith and said: ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’” And you tell me that is my interpretation of it ( and therefore imply it is not to be trusted)?

Tell me how you came to believe that I suggested that this is not to be trusted?

And by the way, since you called me out about answering questions on a catholic forum, how come you, a coptic catholic, are posting on a forum post about what Protestants think about the Land of Israel? Does that not seem hypocritical?

Welcome, you are out. I called you? If I did then you responded to my calling…facts are facts…if an Athiest, Lutheran, Anglican posted the same information about Israel…then it is not the messenger you have a problem with, it is the message. As a Catholic, I know and understand Dispensational thought and what I believe Israel to be. Where is the hypocricy?

Not to mention that you are causing arguments instead of a civil discussion by ridiculing those who post (and not just me, but others on the forum

Not to mention, by no means, then do not mention. If you choose to mention then you should mention where it is you find what it is you find mentionable and percieved of as ridicule.

Elaborate for me by telling me where it is the ones in the passage got their Faith.

 

[wisedom]

it is not appropriate for anyone, let alone any egyptian catholics to call God’s chosen people ‘dirt’

for

‘you are dirt and to dirt thou shalt return’

 

[CopticChristian]

it is not appropriate for anyone, let alone any egyptian catholics to call God’s chosen people ‘dirt’

for

‘you are dirt and to dirt thou shalt return’

Wise,

You are correct. Israel has never been dirt. Israel has always been people. Jacob Israel was a person and his descendants people. Israel as you know is the one that wrestled with God and that is what Israel means. People not dirt wrestle with God.

 

[KathleenGee]

Palestinian Christians are descendents of ancient marriages among Christians, Jews, and Arabs.

The Lebonese Catholic Maronites…correct me here, I thought are Arab Christians.

I was going through the universal catechism and there are many symbols and layers of meaning of Israel, of the Church, and Jerusalem.

 

[CopticChristian]

Palestinian Christians are descendents of ancient marriages among Christians, Jews, and Arabs.

The Lebonese Catholic Maronites…correct me here, I thought are Arab Christians.

I was going through the universal catechism and there are many symbols and layers of meaning of Israel, of the Church, and Jerusalem.

KG,

Here is the index of the USA Catechism for the USA

Israel; Israelites
called to be holy: 139,
336 as chosen people:
13, 131 the Church as prefigured and
prepared for: 113, 116, 122 and faith in God:
466 as forbidden to make images of God: 343
and God as Father: 484 God’s covenant with: 14, God’s love for: 51 Jesus and: 79, 98 Jews not responsible for the death of Jesus: 92-* liberation of: 14, 37, 115.215, 464
New Covenant and: 331 and observance of the Saba363, 526 and the Old Law (see
Old Law)
and the Passover (see P)revelation of name of God
363, 486

Dirt is not called to be Holy, chosen, prefigured, prepared for, have faith in, are forbidden, have covenants, can be held responsible, have Old or New Covenant and dirt does not observe a Passover…

Israel is not dirt…it is people…

Hear O Israel…The Lord Our God is one…

Dirt does not hear, Dirt does not respond…

People hear and People respond…alleluia…

 

[KathleenGee]

Coptic Christian…

Agree. It is about being faithful and avoiding idolatry…‘Israel’…‘those who seek the truth’…another description…and again, my missive, something I read in a devotional by a priest about 8 years ago…can’t remember the source.

Jesus is Truth. You cannot reduce truth to philosophy or ideas.

We are not saved by faith alone, because we continue to sin. On the evening of the resurrection, Christ appeared to the apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins. So we must work out our salvation through the Lord’s help, avoiding in sin and growing in virtue.

The virtues are essences of Jesus Christ.

Messianics have same problems as Protestants as they are limited with the number of theologians they have…and reject many times the early church fathers that pretty much covered the base on heresies and other errors.

 

[Shibolet]

You know what I find interesting?
Your “sudden” appearence on CAF at the same time as the sudden “disappearence” of another poster, also claiming to be Jewish, also using the phrase “replacement theology”, a term coined by evangelicals.
Very curious…

Hey JustaServanat, I am welll aware that the term is coined by evangelicals. You are right about that. The point to verify is if the Catholic Church shares with that evangelical point or not. There is no need to suspect of anything else.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian…

Agree. It is about being faithful and avoiding idolatry…‘Israel’…‘those who seek the truth’…another description…and again, my missive, something I read in a devotional by a priest about 8 years ago…can’t remember the source.

Jesus is Truth. You cannot reduce truth to philosophy or ideas.

We are not saved by faith alone, because we continue to sin. On the evening of the resurrection, Christ appeared to the apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins. So we must work out our salvation through the Lord’s help, avoiding in sin and growing in virtue.

The virtues are essences of Jesus Christ.

Messianics have same problems as Protestants as they are limited with the number of theologians they have…and reject many times the early church fathers that pretty much covered the base on heresies and other errors.

KG,

Jews that become Catholic Christian become Catholic…and of course as I understand there are those that maintain their Hebrew Catholic designation. I can’t say much except that Rites are designated and I am not sure that this would be considered a rite.

Messianics have the same problem as Protestants because they are Protestants but don’t know or realize it. They believe that they have found Jesus, and they have, however it is distant from the Apostolic deposit of Faith that is filled with all the sundry manifold inventions of Protestant thought.

 

[KathleenGee]

CC…
Yes…When I first came across Hebrew Catholic, I went to my pastor and he told me he did not know if they could get a Hebrew rite, and he is one who brought the Latin Mass back to town.

They did have some articles, however, on some Jewish Catholic priests who were reflecting on the liturgy…I do not know if they spoke Hebrew at them either. There were 2 of them, but I think both have passed on.

 

[KathleenGee]

I prayed at Mass today for the Jewish people.

I also noted again at Mass the reading of Genesis, and how Adam would eat ‘dirt’. Before he had eaten the forbidden fruit.

We ate from the Tree of Life this morning, in His kingdom, not of this world…the Eucharist in the ‘pioneer’ new Jerusalem…that has not yet come to its perfection.

Hebrew Catholics believe some day the Jews will be of great help to Christianity.

 

[Shibolet]

I prayed at Mass today for the Jewish people.

I also noted again at Mass the reading of Genesis, and how Adam would eat ‘dirt’. Before he had eaten the forbidden fruit.

We ate from the Tree of Life this morning, in His kingdom, not of this world…the Eucharist in the ‘pioneer’ new Jerusalem…that has not yet come to its perfection.

Hebrew Catholics believe some day the Jews will be of great help to Christianity.

Gee! Thank you! Now, what do you expect will happen to the Jewish People? Whatever you have in mind, according to Numbers 23:19, the Lord is not like a man to change His mind.

I am not aware that Adam ate dirt before he had eaten of the forbidden fruit. Do you remember if the guy who did the Mass reading had a quote for that?

So, you ate from the tree of life this morning. Does it mean you will live forever? According
to Genesis 3:22, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that eternal life was not an attribute granted to man.

Hebrew Catholics!!! What are Hebrew Catholics, Jews who have converted to Catholicism?
Care to tell me something about it?

 

[KathleenGee]

Shibolet

if you are still around, the correct wording is that the serpent would eat dirt. God said the ground would be cursed because of the sin of Adam…that Adam was dirt and to dirt he would return.

Ch , v 24: ‘When He expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.’

God did not want Adam and Eve and their descendents to not go near the way to the tree of life…but their hearts desired it. He gave them precursors to the Messiah as Eucharist in the manna from heaven. The tree of life was not intended to be kept separate from the human race forever. The tree of life was the only good fruit named in the garden, and that it was placed in the middle of the garden.

About the Jewish people…so what do you assume I was praying about in regards to them?

How about simply praying for the welfare for the Jewish people.

The Eucharist is the fruit of the Tree of LIfe. Jesus was placed in an animal feeder in the manger…to become food of life for us. Jesus said He is the vine, we the branches…He speaks of us of bearing good fruit.

About eternal life? Christ said that those who eat of His body and blood enter into eternal life. What breaks this transition into eternal life is mortal sin. We can begin to experience eternity now at Mass and in communion with the Lord.

Hebrewcatholic.org.

 

[Metamorphoo]

Hey Everyone,
I’ve been curious as to why a lot* of Protestants seem to be really into the country/people of Israel. I’m assuming this is because they are (they were?) the chosen people.

Can anyone explain why they think of them as so important now? I mean, aren’t Catholics really the continuation of the chosen people?

We agree that the Abrahamic covenant has not been revoked but fulfilled, it has become the new covenant."

I think the Abrahamic covenant has much to do with why evangelicals tend to find significance in the nation of Israel. The land of Canaan was given to Abraham’s physical descendants–the Hebrew people–as part of the covenant God made with Abraham (see Gen. 17:7-8

One of God’s coventantal promises to Abraham was that the land would be given to his descendants as an everlasting possession (Gen. 17:8). Whether or not the Hebrew people could enjoy living in the Promised Land, however, depended upon their obedience to the Lord (Deut. 28-30).

God’s promise in Deut. 30 to bring back to the Promised Land the people of Israel who had been scattered after their repentance for disobedience is seen as highly relevant to evangelical “Israel watchers.” The 1948 recreation of the nation of Israel after nearly 2000 year of non-existence, the rebirth of Hebrew (which had become a dead language) … as well as the growth in numbers of Jews who profess Christ as the Messiah … are all seen as significant spiritual developments from the standpoint of biblical prophecy.

Although evangelicals would agree with Catholics that the Mosaic covenant has been superseded by the New Covenant, they would not agree with the view implied by Dolezal that the land and other promises of the Abrahamic covenant are no longer relevant. In fact, the New Covenant in essence promises the “Israel and Judah”—which literally refers to the Northern and Southern Kingdoms of Israel, the Hebrew people–that they would not cease to be a nation before Him, in spite of their sins (Jer. 31:31-37). Every Jew who has come to faith in Christ has stood as God’s faithful remnant … and they have every reason to believe that God will continue to honor the promises he made to the Hebrew people.

 

[KathleenGee]

Reviewing past Jewish and other comments here, we see the Jews, who are not Christian, as always chosen. But God is also calling them to true faith and practice as well.

Chosen means that God revealed Himself to them and chose them to bring forth the Messiah.

God hardened the hearts of the Jews so that the Good News could come to the Gentiles. But hardening their heart is not rejecting or condemning them.

A priest told me he believes we are nearing the end times, and I assume it is because of the Jews’ return to Israel.

Also, people must be very aware of some Sedevantists’ positions towards the Jewish people. Such stands are not that of the Catholic Church.

 

[Metamorphoo]

Dirt is not called to be Holy, chosen, prefigured, prepared for, have faith in, are forbidden, have covenants, can be held responsible, have Old or New Covenant and dirt does not observe a Passover…

Israel is not dirt…it is people…

Hear O Israel…The Lord Our God is one…

Dirt does not hear, Dirt does not respond…

People hear and People respond…alleluia…

However, God gave “dirt” as a part of His covenantal promise to Abraham and his physical descendants–and the geographic region encompassing that Promised Dirt was called Israel.

Biblically speaking, it is appropriate to refer the the geographic area of the Promised Land as Israel. So your statement, “Israel is not dirt” is inaccurate.

 

[CopticChristian]

However, God gave “dirt” as a part of His covenantal promise to Abraham and his physical descendants–and the geographic region encompassing that Promised Dirt was called Israel.

Biblically speaking, it is appropriate to refer the the geographic area of the Promised Land as Israel. So your statement, “Israel is not dirt” is inaccurate.

Met,

Israel, dirt, is long gone. It is tantamount to any land conquered. It once was and no longer is. We can’t go back and give all the land back to people that lost their land. History is history. What was was. The land called Isreal of yesterday is not the Israel that is spoken of in the NT. It was dirt/people and now it is people on earth and the only dirt the people of Israel occupy is the entire world/dirt.

When Christ was born on dirt, the entirety of dirt was sanctified or do you believe that the sanctity of His touchdown was limited, thus limiting God?

 

[CopticChristian]

However, God gave “dirt” as a part of His covenantal promise to Abraham and his physical descendants–and the geographic region encompassing that Promised Dirt was called Israel.

Biblically speaking, it is appropriate to refer the the geographic area of the Promised Land as Israel. So your statement, “Israel is not dirt” is inaccurate.

Meta,

You may also want to take this up with those that discuss the use of Israel in the NT, here is a Protestant source…not dirt…People…I don’t agree with their assessment however they are not talking about dirt.

fredsbibletalk.com/waldron4.html