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GaryTaylor
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This…
[Full of Grace] Mary - full if grace previous to this point, as mentioned.
philvaz.com/apologetics/a116.htm
All have sinned…Salvation is of Jesus Christ the Lord.
The justice of God is His love/mercy where as [HE] declares guilty man innocent and then makes this so. [HE] does this, not as a result of the law, but apart from it. [HE] is not subject to [HIS] law. And He does this… through forgiveness, love/mercy. Relates back to Full of Grace and ‘predestination’ also touched on.
Pauls dialogue indicates there is no advantage for Jew of Gentile.:
Incarnation…
As mentioned “hypostatic union” Doctrine of the Church East/West, and the very reason in lack of theological understanding that every heresy has entered these Church’s. And not one has ever stood, ever. Historic and in reality [de-facto].
Sin…
Humanity’s rejection of God and opposition to Him. Non existent with Mary and Biblically.
Human Nature after the fall? Physical Death, Spiritual Death, along with the remainder of the consequence mentioned in Genesis. Council of Orange.
I’m struggling to see what “anyone” else applies to Mary save East/West. We know what we apply and it has been applied a very long time and against every evil which confronted [HIS] Church.
And my apology should you find this disturbing, but it is the Truth. And that means its the Truth regardless of who believe what.
“continuity” you have to have this, to have this conversation in full. Not a cherry picked verse which leads to a “different” conclusion of the Incarnation. In other words you are not making music. Its a bowl of individual notes and They Do Not Make Music.
You are locked in a belief you cannot defend by you own double standard. And astonishing as that is, you want to know why “we” insist on believing what we believe. At this point I do believe you should be asking yourself this very question.
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GaryTaylor
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aidanbradypop
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That always stumps me. Protestant accept the authority of the Church when it comes to the Holy Trinity, Scripture…etc but reject parts they do not agree with. How can you accept that the Catholic Church collected the correct and inspired Scriptures but reject the Church???
How can one accept the Holy Trinity as truth and reject the Church when she tells us that the Mother of God was sinless???
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PRmerger
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You seem to be operating under a misapprehension that the Church has a teaching on every single verse in Scripture, and how it applies to Mary.
Let me assure you that this is not how the Church operates.
So if you are asking, “Where is the official Church teaching on how Marian Romans 3:23 is?” well, you are asking the wrong question.
The Church does not have any official pronouncements, specifically, that addresses your question of whether Mary has fallen short of the glory of God.
From my extensive catechesis, I will answer for you, unofficially, what the Catholic understanding is: it’s the proverbial Catholic both/and. See my previous response.
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aidanbradypop
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EIF5A
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Protestants view divine revelations contained in Scripture as necessary and sufficient for salvation. Catholics do not.That always stumps me. Protestant accept the authority of the Church when it comes to the Holy Trinity, Scripture…etc but reject parts they do not agree with. How can you accept that the Catholic Church collected the correct and inspired Scriptures but reject the Church???
How can one accept the Holy Trinity as truth and reject the Church when she tells us that the Mother of God was sinless???
“Do not agree with” — it wasn’t contained in Scripture and even the Orthodox have a different interpretation of original sin…
The books of the New Testament — were they Scripture the moment they were jotted down or did they become part of Scripture after the council?
Is believing in a sinless Mary necessary for salvation? If one does not believe that and only believes that Mary was the most special person in human history but still subject to the consequences of the sins of Adam and Eve, does that take away in any way the death and resurrection, suffering and victory, of Christ God?
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GaryTaylor
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I just cannot grasp the logic at the moment, this truth we are talking about which one believes in this faith.[Incarnation] basic “Christianity” You could not have arrived at that understanding of truth but through the Catholic Church and the early teachings of the Church prior to the reformation 4th ecumenical council. which after that we no longer consider you Christian by logic that be “other” something else, That’s where we go with “We know where the Church is, WE do not know where it is not”
You arrived at your truth through the only truth that existed at that time, the most Holy Catholic Church, Christs bride and undivided at the specific time The Church is the body of Christ also Incarnate if you will. That truth? We call that Christianity. That belief? Many protestants are on the seventh council. This is other than that which we are talking here.
Referenced here by sola=scriptura reading. Stands to reason either the Catholic/Orthodox have held this “truth” which you call and believe is untrue, so your truth arrived from what you call untruth. . What does that make your truth?
So no “all” protestants do not believe this “untruth”.
Incarnation/hypostatic union.
Follow? For further information I shall refer you to PR, she types a 100 words a minute.
You arrived at your truth through the only truth that existed at that time, the most Holy Catholic Church, Christs bride and undivided at the specific time The Church is the body of Christ also Incarnate if you will. That truth? We call that Christianity. That belief? Many protestants are on the seventh council. This is other than that which we are talking here.
Referenced here by sola=scriptura reading. Stands to reason either the Catholic/Orthodox have held this “truth” which you call and believe is untrue, so your truth arrived from what you call untruth. . What does that make your truth?
So no “all” protestants do not believe this “untruth”.
Incarnation/hypostatic union.Follow? For further information I shall refer you to PR, she types a 100 words a minute.
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aidanbradypop
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Fair enough. So where in Scripture can I read that?
The Orthodox are part of the Church of Christ.
Is the Gospel of Judas or Thomas Scripture and Inspired by God? When you read your bible you trust that the Catholic Church picked the correct text to make up the Scripture you read…correct?
Believing Mary was sinless is trusting the Church. If we do not trust the Church then what are we left with? Many denominations claiming to be the true faith. That kind of gets confusing after awhile.
The Church that Christ established on earth is necessary for Salvation. We must trust in the Church and her teachings. The Marian dogmas bring us closer to Christ. How can that be a bad thing?I thought is was a 1000. She must be slowing down. lolFor further information I shall refer you to PR, she types a 100 words a minute.
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EIF5A
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You didn’t answer my question. Anyways, according to Catholicism, does Scripture contain the knowledge and guideline necessary and sufficient for salvation? Yes or no.
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aidanbradypop
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Yes,wait for it…and no. lol
Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition gives us the “guidelines necassary and sufficient for salvation.” We gained both from Christ through His’ Holy Church that He established here on the sinful earth.
To answer you question…I will let Jimmy Aiken give a shot. He is much better at explaining than I am.
jimmyakin.com/2012/08/why-is-the-immaculate-conception-important.html
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pablope
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Let me ask you something:
Does the Bible say how many times a week we should worship?
If no, where would we find the answer?
Does the Bible say how many times we should go to confession? How about how or the manner of how we should confess?
If no, where should we find the answer?
Does the Bible say how many crosses we should bear? Where should we find that cross?
If no, where would we find the answer?
Does the Bible say how or the manner of worship should be?
If no, where would we find the answer?
This is just for starters…
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EIF5A
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Procedural tradition is different from theological tradition (e.g., Immaculate Conception).Let me ask you something:
Does the Bible say how many times a week we should worship?
If no, where would we find the answer?
Does the Bible say how many times we should go to confession? How about how or the manner of how we should confess?
If no, where should we find the answer?
Does the Bible say how many crosses we should bear? Where should we find that cross?
If no, where would we find the answer?
Does the Bible say how or the manner of worship should be?
If no, where would we find the answer?
This is just for starters…
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GaryTaylor
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This is a circular conversation…
A] Incarnation/Hypostatic Union
B] Immaculate Conception
You cannot discuss B with out agreeing with A. Again that is “other”
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GaryTaylor
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And when we all agree with A? That’s when we call B “most fitting” 
We is referring to “Catholicism”
We is referring to “Catholicism”
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pablope
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First…look and review your question:
[SIGN]
Originally Posted by EIF5A
You didn’t answer my question. Anyways, according to Catholicism, does Scripture contain the knowledge and guideline necessary and sufficient for salvation? Yes or no.[/SIGN]
Are guidelines not procedural tradition also?
Are guidelines contained in Scripture? If not, where you find these guidelines?
Is procedural tradition not part and parcel of our journey to the final goal…salvation in heaven?
Even protestants have procedural tradition.
Is not procedural tradition part and parcel of what the church teaches…to aid in journey to final salvation?
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GaryTaylor
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Tradition
orthodoxwiki.org/Fourth_Ecumenical_Council
Concerning Christ’s nature and personhood, the Council rejected Dioscorus’ position, and proclaimed that:
…while Christ is a single, undivided person, He is not only from two natures but in two natures. The bishops acclaimed the Tome of St. Leo the Great, Pope of Rome (died 461), in which the distinction between the two natures is clearly stated, although the unity of Christ’s person is also emphasized. In their proclamation of faith they stated their belief in 'one and the same son, perfect in Godhead and perfect in humanity, truly God and truly human… acknowledged in two natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference between the natures is in no way removed because of the union, but rather the peculiar property of each nature is preserved, and both combine in one person and in one hypostasis.
From here the Incarnation of the Word of God was further contemplated and discussed in regards to the BVM,. then enter the History of the Immaculate Conception in Rome which has been mentioned with links, posts etc. Course the Incarnation coincides with Sacred Scripture and as to the above Church’s, the two are inseparable, the veneration of the BVM is also inseparable and rightly so.
As to the early Church and its veneration of the BVM this is also documented and well preserved in Tradition.
What we are talking about is further alienation of Tradition in favor of Sacred Scripture. They coincide just as the Nature of Christ is described, unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably for the Church too is regarded as the Incarnation of the Word of God, and in this way you see the Divine order established on earth, and ascending to the Lord.
orthodoxwiki.org/Fourth_Ecumenical_Council
Concerning Christ’s nature and personhood, the Council rejected Dioscorus’ position, and proclaimed that:
…while Christ is a single, undivided person, He is not only from two natures but in two natures. The bishops acclaimed the Tome of St. Leo the Great, Pope of Rome (died 461), in which the distinction between the two natures is clearly stated, although the unity of Christ’s person is also emphasized. In their proclamation of faith they stated their belief in 'one and the same son, perfect in Godhead and perfect in humanity, truly God and truly human… acknowledged in two natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference between the natures is in no way removed because of the union, but rather the peculiar property of each nature is preserved, and both combine in one person and in one hypostasis.
From here the Incarnation of the Word of God was further contemplated and discussed in regards to the BVM,. then enter the History of the Immaculate Conception in Rome which has been mentioned with links, posts etc. Course the Incarnation coincides with Sacred Scripture and as to the above Church’s, the two are inseparable, the veneration of the BVM is also inseparable and rightly so.
As to the early Church and its veneration of the BVM this is also documented and well preserved in Tradition.
What we are talking about is further alienation of Tradition in favor of Sacred Scripture. They coincide just as the Nature of Christ is described, unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably for the Church too is regarded as the Incarnation of the Word of God, and in this way you see the Divine order established on earth, and ascending to the Lord.
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PRmerger
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Well, that’s not exactly true. Catholics may view Scripture as materially sufficient, just not formally so.
This appears to be a non-sequitur.
They were always Scripture, from the first moment ink was placed on papyrus.
However, you cannot know which of the over 400 ancient Christian texts are Scripture…
save for submitting to the authority of the CC.
So the question becomes: ** if you believe the Church is capable of error, how do you know that the Church didn’t get it wrong in including Hebrews, but excluding Clement’s letters?**
This is the wrong question for any Christian to ask. It’s like asking your beloved: do I have to believe everything you say, or just the important things?
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PRmerger
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Heh!For further information I shall refer you to PR, she types a 100 words a minute.
I do type fast. I talk fast. I work fast. I drive fast.
That is in direct contrast to my DH, who is very methodical, thoughtful, and never, ever,* ever* drives over the speed limit.
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Weissystems
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We do not worship Mary. We venerate her. No matter how many times you explain this to some people you have the syndrome of “none so deaf as those who do not want to hear”. In one ear and out of the other. As soon as you have explained it they come back at you with “you lot worship Mary”.
WWW.CATHOLICPRAYERGROUP.NET
WWW.CATHOLICPRAYERGROUP.NET
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