Protestant View of Mariology

[ConstantineTG]

It does not remove original sin. It was a one-time exception for the new Eve. The answer to number 2 is obvious: Mary, unlike the rest of us, was to play a rather unique role in the salvation of the world. I am sure if God wanted to God could have allowed original sin (something you do not believe) to remain a part of Mary’s earthly life, but God did not as per the CC. According the EOC aka CC, God did. it will all come out in the wash for each of us one day.

There are quite a few questions that I would love to ask God, but I cannot.

What about St. Anne? Didn’t she play a unique role to salvation? No St. Anne, no Mary. How about St. Joachim? Again, no St. Joachim, no Mary. Didn’t St. John the Baptist play a unique role to our salvation? How about Judas? If he didn’t betray Jesus, no crucifixion. How about Peter? No Peter, no supreme, infallible Pope, no Church (as per your theology). Should I go on?

 

[PRmerger]

The same logic could be used regarding Mary’s fiat. Why should anyone be OK with the fiat but struggle with her IC…

'zactly.

The only reason I can think of is because it’s too Catholic, and in a person’s zeal to leave Catholicism behind, truth and reason is left behind as well.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is she “saved”? Sounds like a question that a Protestant would ask.

Well if she is in the pre-fall state, why would she need a savior? That is a legit question.

 

[joe371]

Well if she is in the pre-fall state, why would she need a savior? That is a legit question.

Because she, like us, followed in the shoes of Adam and Eve. Why does it matter when God saved Mary?

 

[ConstantineTG]

So He can give us so great a Redeemer.

O Felix Culpa!

Doesn’t make sense. So God has to let us suffer in sin and let His own Son become mortal and suffer even if He can prevent all that just so to do something completely unnecessary?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Because she, like us, followed in the shoes of Adam and Eve. Why does it matter when God saved Mary?

Because it affects all of us. If God can save Mary from conception, why not the rest of us. And read all my other posts here and in the last page.

 

[joe371]

What about St. Anne? Didn’t she play a unique role to salvation? No St. Anne, no Mary. How about St. Joachim? Again, no St. Joachim, no Mary. Didn’t St. John the Baptist play a unique role to our salvation? How about Judas? If he didn’t betray Jesus, no crucifixion. How about Peter? No Peter, no supreme, infallible Pope, no Church (as per your theology). Should I go on?

Absolutely. But not the role the mother of God played, and continues to play. The miracle of Damascus has been approved by the Orthodox bishop.

Last I checked Peter, Judas, and the rest were not the mother of God. You do not believe in original sin but you do believe that Mary lived a sinless life. I could ask the same question about Peter etc… That’s a tactic right out of my former Lutheran pastors playbook. LOL…Didn’t make sense to me then and it still doesn’t.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And this is where that “worship” comes into place, when we start thinking of Mary as being above all humanity, as if she is a class of her own between God and humans.

She is said to be blessed among women, not above them.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Absolutely. But not the role the mother of God played. Last I checked Peter, Judas, and the rest were not the mother of God. You do not believe in original sin but you do believe that Mary lived a sinless life. I could ask the same question about Peter etc… That’s a tactic right out of my former Lutheran pastors playbook. LOL…Didn’t make sense to me then and it still doesn’t.

Well, no Peter, who would Christ build the Church on? Who would be the supreme infallible leader who alone is capable of discerning the truth of Revelation? Without Peter, you today cannot be saved because there is no Church, and you don’t know what the truth is. That is Catholic theology, isn’t it?

 

[joe371]

And this is where that “worship” comes into place, when we start thinking of Mary as being above all humanity, as if she is a class of her own between God and humans.

She is said to be blessed among women, not above them.

Wow, I thought we were all done with that “worship” word. This logic makes no sense to me. No one is putting Mary above the rest of the human race. That’s silly. I don’t know what else to say. As a human walking the earth, the only difference between Mary, me and you etc., was the fact that she was the mother of God, a perpetual virgin, and the IC, who was assumed into heaven. Why was she lucky enough to be assumed and not Peter, Judas etc., something you asked me about her IC? Now that she occupies eternity, her role is way different, just as all the saints’ roles are different in terms of being prayer warriors. Mary was never above anyone when she walked the earth. She was just the opposite: a most humble, meek and pure human who lived according to Jesus’ will, all of her life.

 

[joe371]

Well, no Peter, who would Christ build the Church on? Who would be the supreme infallible leader who alone is capable of discerning the truth of Revelation? Without Peter, you today cannot be saved because there is no Church, and you don’t know what the truth is. That is Catholic theology, isn’t it?

Peter was a fallible man. God works infallibly through the chair of Peter, discerning the truth of Revelation. I thought we were on the same page on this idea???

 

[joe371]

Without Peter, you today cannot be saved because there is no Church, and you don’t know what the truth is. That is Catholic theology, isn’t it?

Not true. That is not Orthodox theology either, I hope?

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[dvdjs]

And this is where that “worship” comes into place, when we start thinking of Mary as being above all humanity, as if she is a class of her own between God and humans.

She is said to be blessed among women, not above them.

In the East, she is said not only to be above all humanity, but above all creation.

 

[joe371]

Well, no Peter, who would Christ build the Church on? Who would be the supreme infallible leader who alone is capable of discerning the truth of Revelation? Without Peter, you today cannot be saved because there is no Church, and you don’t know what the truth is. That is Catholic theology, isn’t it?

It’s not Peter and his successors alone. There are ecumenical councils working collaboratively, even when the pope defined Mary’s IC and assumption. The pope doesn’t just work alone on these matters.

 

[joe371]

In the East, she is said not only to be above all humanity, but above all creation.

I didn’t know that…Who, in the east, said that?

 

[SteveVH]

And this is where that “worship” comes into place, when we start thinking of Mary as being above all humanity, as if she is a class of her own between God and humans.

She is said to be blessed among women, not above them.

Mary is the daughter of the Father, the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the mother of the Son. Tell me of another person who had this kind of relationship with the Trinity?

 

[joe371]

Mary is the daughter of the Father, the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the mother of the Son. Tell me of another person who had this kind of relationship with the Trinity?

Trinity, the source of everything. Awesome point! No one… Not even the perfectly powerful, loving angels in heaven if you think about it…That is why Mary is called the queen of heaven, mother to the eternal King of kings.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Wow, I thought we were all done with that “worship” word. This logic makes no sense to me. No one is putting Mary above the rest of the human race. That’s silly. I don’t know what else to say. As a human walking the earth, the only difference between Mary, me and you etc., was the fact that she was the mother of God, a perpetual virgin, and the IC, who was assumed into heaven. Why was she lucky enough to be assumed and not Peter, Judas etc., something you asked me about her IC? Now that she occupies eternity, her role is way different, just as all the saints’ roles are different in terms of being prayer warriors. Mary was never above anyone when she walked the earth. She was just the opposite: a most humble, meek and pure human who lived according to Jesus’ will, all of her life.

But the IC does exactly that, sets her apart from everyone else. She gets something not everyone else gets. Even being the Godbearer won’t be unique to Mary, though it is unique in the sense that she bore God in her womb, everyone else is called to bear God within themselves. St. Ignatius of Antioch is called the God bearer, though the Greek word for it is different from Theotokos (right now it escapes me).

And as for the Assumption? Again, that is a fate that awaits for us all. This is a greatest difference between Catholic and Orthodox belief on the Dormition and Assumption of Mary, because the Catholics see the Assumption as simply about a privilege granted to Mary, again separating her from the rest of humanity. The Orthodox see that the only privilege is that Mary received the Final Resurrection ahead of others, because it is right for her body who bore God to be preserved from corruption. But that like Mary, at the end of the ages we all will be resurrected and assumed.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Mary is the daughter of the Father, the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the mother of the Son. Tell me of another person who had this kind of relationship with the Trinity?

Awesome point! No one…

But that is uniquely a Catholic belief. The Orthodox do not view Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit. To believe in that is to believe that God had sex with Mary, which obviously did not happen.

Also, to say that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit is to claim that the Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus, the one who begot him. But we profess that Jesus is begotten of the Father, not of the Holy Spirit. So if Mary is the mother of Jesus (which is true), it is absolutely false to claim that Mary’s spouse is the Holy Spirit. It is actually heretical to believe that as it violates one of the basic tenets of our faith.

 

[joe371]

But the IC does exactly that, sets her apart from everyone else. She gets something not everyone else gets.

Like Steve said, Mary had a singularly unique relationship with the Holy Trinity: point out another human who is the daughter of the Father, spouse of the Holy Spirit, and mother of the Son?

So, she cannot be the IC because it is something that others don’t get, but she can be the only human, other than 2 (OT) to be assumed bodily into heaven. Is that what you believe? Yes or no?