Protestant View of Mariology

[dreamfleur]

I don’t know if any of these points were already addressed in this thread and I am by no means of any authority but I have been struggling with this for the past couple of weeks. Here are my two cents worth:

-In reading the Protoevangelium of James I see that Mary was indeed “special”.

• The prophet Isaiah tells that the Messiah would be born of a virgin so I imagine that there were girls that were dedicated to this purpose back in those days and prepared just in case they were chosen.
• NOT ONE of the Holy people that God chose to do His special work was ever “thrown” out of the BIG PICTURE. How much more Mary the Mother of God.
  -According to the Protoevangelium of James she was given to Joseph for him to care for her (after Joseph also being chosen by the blooming of his staff and the dove). He was to “care” for her but he was a widower and he was OLD so I don’t think that they were to be a “couple” in any other sense than the “parents” of Jesus. Jesus’ brothers would have been Joseph’s children from a prior marriage.
• Because Mary had a child with God it technically meant He was her spouse, for her to be with another man would mean she was committing adultery and breaking a commandment.
• With regard to her assumption, with the belief that relics have power I imagine that God assumed her body because her body would have had A LOT of power.
• Oh, and with regard to the commandment “Honor your father and your mother”. Jesus also keeps the commandments and if He honors his mother… maybe we should too?

I am not Catholic although I am searching. I hope some of this makes sense. It’s what I can make out so far.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I don’t know if any of these points were already addressed in this thread and I am by no means of any authority but I have been struggling with this for the past couple of weeks. Here are my two cents worth:

-In reading the Protoevangelium of James I see that Mary was indeed “special”.

• The prophet Isaiah tells that the Messiah would be born of a virgin so I imagine that there were girls that were dedicated to this purpose back in those days and prepared just in case they were chosen.
• NOT ONE of the Holy people that God chose to do His special work was ever “thrown” out of the BIG PICTURE. How much more Mary the Mother of God.
  -According to the Protoevangelium of James she was given to Joseph for him to care for her (after Joseph also being chosen by the blooming of his staff and the dove). He was to “care” for her but he was a widower and he was OLD so I don’t think that they were to be a “couple” in any other sense than the “parents” of Jesus. Jesus’ brothers would have been Joseph’s children from a prior marriage.
• Because Mary had a child with God it technically meant He was her spouse, for her to be with another man would mean she was committing adultery and breaking a commandment.
• With regard to her assumption, with the belief that relics have power I imagine that God assumed her body because her body would have had A LOT of power.

I am not Catholic although I am searching. I hope some of this makes sense. It’s what I can make out so far.

Very nicely done. Keep up the spiritual research and journey!

 

[KathleenGee]

Jrtrent…

The Roman Catholic Church allows people their own freedom to interpret Sacred Scripture privately. This is called Biblical Studies…Some Catholic sisters interpret Scripture from a feminist view point and are in good standing with the Church.

But to study Scripture from the Church’s interpretation, it is universal and works in union with the Holy Spirit to draw us into one heart, one mind, one baptism, one body and this is called Orthodoxy.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t know if any of these points were already addressed in this thread and I am by no means of any authority but I have been struggling with this for the past couple of weeks. Here are my two cents worth:

-In reading the Protoevangelium of James I see that Mary was indeed “special”.

• The prophet Isaiah tells that the Messiah would be born of a virgin so I imagine that there were girls that were dedicated to this purpose back in those days and prepared just in case they were chosen.
• NOT ONE of the Holy people that God chose to do His special work was ever “thrown” out of the BIG PICTURE. How much more Mary the Mother of God.
  -According to the Protoevangelium of James she was given to Joseph for him to care for her (after Joseph also being chosen by the blooming of his staff and the dove). He was to “care” for her but he was a widower and he was OLD so I don’t think that they were to be a “couple” in any other sense than the “parents” of Jesus. Jesus’ brothers would have been Joseph’s children from a prior marriage.
• Because Mary had a child with God it technically meant He was her spouse, for her to be with another man would mean she was committing adultery and breaking a commandment.
• With regard to her assumption, with the belief that relics have power I imagine that God assumed her body because her body would have had A LOT of power.
• Oh, and with regard to the commandment “Honor your father and your mother”. Jesus also keeps the commandments and if He honors his mother… maybe we should too?

I am not Catholic although I am searching. I hope some of this makes sense. It’s what I can make out so far.

It makes perfect sense. If you want to see how the Protoevangelium of James fits into the early Church you might want to read Maximus the Confessor “Life of the Virgin” Shoemaker. Which is the earliest known work on the Blessed Mother.

pg-38 " Everything that we will relate is trustworthy and reliable, true testimonies taken from the pious: first of among them the holy evangelists and apostles; then from the holy and deeply devote fathers; who’s words are full of wisdom and were written by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and their works are beautiful and virtuous.

This are Gregory of Neocaesarea the Thaumaturge, the great Athanasius of Alexandria, blessed Gregory of Nyssa, and Doinysius the Areopagite, and others similar in virtue. And if we say some things from the apocryphal writings, this is true and without error, and it is what has been accepted and confirmed by the above mentioned fathers."

The Saint also speaks of the Assumption and Dormition.

 

[jrtrent]

However, we tend to be arbitrary when interpreting Scriptures. On life application and things alike we can be more flexible. However, when it comes to matters of the Faith - we are in no freedom in interpreting Scriptures it by ourselves and then pretend that we are the only ones that know the truth.

I’m not saying this applies specifically to you, but at times you come across that way.

I’m sorry if that’s the way I’ve come across in my posts. What I’ve tried to state when the topic comes up is that I don’t believe any church has all the truth, that all churches are imperfect and hold error as well as truth, and that there is no way for me (far less perfect than any church!) to know with certainty which is which. One of the things that appeals to me about Anglicanism is that it allows for some rather divergent ideas while still remaining within bounds of what the church teaches. For example, it’s possible to be either Calvinist or Arminian with respect to predestination/free will, and yet remain Anglican. I happen to belong to a church that practices infant baptism, but I don’t claim that those who practice believer’s baptism are heretics or non-Christian. I posted this a while back, but it still reflects my belief:

There are irreconcilable differences between churches regarding such things as the meaning and procedures for the sacraments, predestination vs. free will, and forms of church government. I believe these differences exist because no church is perfect.

. . . as God permits men to mar the perfection of His designs in their behalf, and as men have both corrupted the doctrines and broken the unity of the Church, we must not expect to see the Church of Christ existing in its perfection on the earth. It is not to be found thus perfect, either in the collected fragments of Christendom or still less in any one of those fragments; though it is possible that one of those fragments more than another may approach the scriptural and apostolic ideal, which existed only until sin, heresy, and schism had time sufficiently to develop themselves to do their work." (Smith’s Bible Dictionary)

However, I do believe that there is, or should be, sufficient unity amongst all Christian churches that we can recognize each other as Christians and work together toward common goals. The OP had said that Catholics and Protestants hold enough things in common that “we are simply just siblings in Christ.” Maybe at some point Catholics and Protestants, or even different types of Protestants, can come to the point of understanding and accepting our differences rather than squabbling over them. Another blurb from Smith’s Bible Dictionary emphasizes what Christians hold in common when compared to non-Christian faiths:

This difference [between Christian and non-Christian religions] is constituted by the Christian religion having Jesus Christ, His revelation, and His precepts for the objects of its contemplations and the motive of its actions. The Church, therefore, consists of all who acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ the blessed Savior of mankind, who gives credit to His gospel, and who hold His sacraments, the seals of eternal life, in honor.​

It is never my intent to say that I’m the only one who knows the truth. In fact, I might go too far in the other direction, and respect a wide variety of Christian churches, including Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, filled with people honestly loving God and doing their best to serve Him the best way they know how.

The OP of this thread asked for Protestant views of Mariology. I gave mine in post number 2, and expanded a bit in post number 13 at the prompting of the OP. The fact that I have an opinion on the matter and stated it does not mean that I don’t give others the right to hold a different opinion. You said, “I think the only way to understand it is through Sacred Tradition.” Protestants do not reject tradition out of hand, which is why most accept documents like the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed, but hold different positions on many issues, which is why we have confessions.

. . . every group (Protestant or otherwise) claiming “the Bible only” has its own interpretation. Christians do not wish to quibble over words but they do wish to adhere to the true meaning of Scripture. Hence the necessity and honesty of declaring our understanding of controverted teachings of Scripture in a public Confession of Faith.[5] As Dutch theologian Herman Bavinck (1854-1921) put it: “For the Holy Scripture was not given to the church by God to be thoughtlessly repeated but to be understood in all its fulness and richness…”[6]

In short, the genuine and original Protestant position is that the church is bound to be a confessing church - that doesn’t mean it has a confessional box but that it subscribes a statement of what it believes Scripture teaches. The original Protestants understood this very well. Hence Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, and early Baptist churches expressed their faith by continuing to accept the so-called Apostles’ Creed and by compiling quite lengthy Confessions of Faith. reformedreader.org/ssss.htm

Protestant churches, despite their very real differences, hold many things in common. Charles Hodge said that Protestants have real unity in that they are subject to the same Lord, animated by the same Spirit, recognize each other as Christian churches, and subject themselves to a “common tribunal,” the Bible (even if we don’t agree on what it teaches!). When asked a question, it’s not my intent to come across as saying that I’m necessarily right and everyone else is wrong–having also attended Presbyterian, Baptist, Mormon, Lutheran, and Orthodox churches, I have great respect for their faith, study, and commitment–but am simply trying to say what I believe and why.

 

[ephesians4]

Hello my friends - this thread is awesome thank you - from the position of someone living on a bridge over the Tiber (ok, admittedly not as a “protestant” per se) this is very interesting stuff for me to read.

A Protestant friend of mine stated this…If God could allow his Son to be born of a human, could he not have also kept Mary’s sin from passing onto Christ at birth?

I suppose I’d say… isn’t this question an indirect question of the omnipotence of God?

Yes, those male chauvinist pigs. How dare they? But wait a minute, why would a bucnh of male, chauvinit pigs be looking for a female figurehead?

One aside I’d like to make here is that men have all sorts of natural, God-given instincts to love and care for and revere women - some of which are pure in nature and almost all of which are often represented as chauvinist and evil in the modern moral ether - we live in a climate where it suits some to present all that is good and ordered and lovely about human nature as base and wicked and oppressive.

If someone said a male-dominated church would want a female figure to revere, that could easily be meant without suggesting they were awful people.

The Catholic Church has championed the dignity of women since its inception and has never kept them “subservient”.

God is our Father. When things are ordered properly, nobody loves daughters like their father.

Christian women really in touch with God and the church seem to really have a sense of this about them (to me) - and I wonder whether this is a big part of why so many women are Christian - but then I could be totally imagining that.

I think a) the understandings of women of God’s love and the woman’s particular kinds of crosses borne, and b) the good and ordered paternalistic instincts of men that we should all celebrate, both feed into the love and reverence of Mary. Bless her.

…OK, I am not given to emotional fireworks, but I just had the most bizarre and unexpected welling up of indescribably strong positive emotions about Mary as I thought about her, who she was and why we revere her - to articulate the last line of that post, to the point where I have a tear in my eye, which is so incredibly uncharacteristic of me it would be less surprising if my head had fallen off, rolled around the floor, and started singing showtunes.

It sounds super melodramatic so I’m a bit embarrassed - forgive my possibly unseemly enthusiasm for a web forum, but I must share - I think I have literally just now truly understood Mary after a lifetime (so far) of not getting it at all, and more recently of being dreadfully afraid of Mariolatry.

Edit: I really can’t thank people enough for posting this discussion of the matter.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Hello my friends - this thread is awesome thank you - from the position of someone living on a bridge over the Tiber (ok, admittedly not as a “protestant” per se) this is very interesting stuff for me to read.

Edit: I really can’t thank people enough for posting this discussion of the matter.

That’s what we’re here for.

 

[MartinJordan]

…OK, I am not given to emotional fireworks, but I just had the most bizarre and unexpected welling up of indescribably strong positive emotions about Mary as I thought about her, who she was and why we revere her - to articulate the last line of that post, to the point where I have a tear in my eye, which is so incredibly uncharacteristic of me it would be less surprising if my head had fallen off, rolled around the floor, and started singing showtunes.

It sounds super melodramatic so I’m a bit embarrassed - forgive my possibly unseemly enthusiasm for a web forum, but I must share - I think I have literally just now truly understood Mary after a lifetime (so far) of not getting it at all, and more recently of being dreadfully afraid of Mariolatry.

Edit: I really can’t thank people enough for posting this discussion of the matter.

:extrahappy:

May you continue to appreciate and love Mother Mary and for all her contemplative ways in bringing us closer to her Son.

MJ

 

[aidanbradypop]

That’s what we’re here for.

You know you wanna put your :twocents: in lol. I am just so happy that we can talk about this while be very charitable in our post. The Blessed Mother would never want us to fight over her.

Hello my friends - this thread is awesome thank you - from the position of someone living on a bridge over the Tiber (ok, admittedly not as a “protestant” per se) this is very interesting stuff for me to read.

…

…OK, I am not given to emotional fireworks, but I just had the most bizarre and unexpected welling up of indescribably strong positive emotions about Mary as I thought about her, who she was and why we revere her - to articulate the last line of that post, to the point where I have a tear in my eye, which is so incredibly uncharacteristic of me it would be less surprising if my head had fallen off, rolled around the floor, and started singing showtunes.

It sounds super melodramatic so I’m a bit embarrassed - forgive my possibly unseemly enthusiasm for a web forum, but I must share - I think I have literally just now truly understood Mary after a lifetime (so far) of not getting it at all, and more recently of being dreadfully afraid of Mariolatry.

Edit: I really can’t thank people enough for posting this discussion of the matter.

Now you are making me get soft. Stop that! lol My heart and soul are so pleased to have you join the thread! I was wondering how long it was going to take you lol.

Mariolatry is the stubbling block many face. They have a false belief about how the Church views the Blessed Mother which then makes it hard to understand what she brings to the table.

I believe it will not be a saint, pope or patriarch that will bring the Churches together, but it will be our Blessed Mother. Her Son laid down his life for us so that we may have life and I’m sure that she desires nothing more than for us all to be united in His love and Church!

 

[JustaServant]

The Blessed Mother would never want us to fight over her.

Very, VERY good point.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Very, VERY good point.

I was a “Marian Warrior” when I was younger. I would seriously be ready to fight someone if they spoke ill of the Blessed Mother. It wasn’t until my wife and I had childern that I realized fighting over her was doing more damage than good.

A friend of mine a few years ago kind of brushed the Mother away as merely a Jewish woman like any other. I jumped down his throat and then it was like she told me “is this how you want me to be known to them” so I changed my tude and started to simply try and share her love with others. It becomes almost to much to handle at times, but I suffer with her and that gives me a bit more comfort to continue on.

 

[cheezey]

I don’t know if any of these points were already addressed in this thread and I am by no means of any authority but I have been struggling with this for the past couple of weeks. Here are my two cents worth:

-In reading the Protoevangelium of James I see that Mary was indeed “special”.

• The prophet Isaiah tells that the Messiah would be born of a virgin so I imagine that there were girls that were dedicated to this purpose back in those days and prepared just in case they were chosen.
• NOT ONE of the Holy people that God chose to do His special work was ever “thrown” out of the BIG PICTURE. How much more Mary the Mother of God.
  -According to the Protoevangelium of James she was given to Joseph for him to care for her (after Joseph also being chosen by the blooming of his staff and the dove). He was to “care” for her but he was a widower and he was OLD so I don’t think that they were to be a “couple” in any other sense than the “parents” of Jesus. Jesus’ brothers would have been Joseph’s children from a prior marriage.
• Because Mary had a child with God it technically meant He was her spouse, for her to be with another man would mean she was committing adultery and breaking a commandment.
• With regard to her assumption, with the belief that relics have power I imagine that God assumed her body because her body would have had A LOT of power.
• Oh, and with regard to the commandment “Honor your father and your mother”. Jesus also keeps the commandments and if He honors his mother… maybe we should too?

I am not Catholic although I am searching. I hope some of this makes sense. It’s what I can make out so far.

:clapping:

Well, that’s just a great big huge :thankyou: from me, a student in RCIA and just trying to understand many Whys…

(Love your handle, too…)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’m sorry if that’s the way I’ve come across in my posts.

I’ve read more of your posts and you sure are passionate and seem to be well read. I do admire those qualities!

What I’ve tried to state when the topic comes up is that I don’t believe any church has all the truth, that all churches are imperfect and hold error as well as truth, and that there is no way for me (far less perfect than any church!) to know with certainty which is which.

That’s the same belief I held for many years. Here’s what did it for me: Eucharist, Reconciliation, Scriptures, the Real Presence, Church History, and Church Councils (I’ll leave it at his for brevity’s sake).

Oh the irony of reading the Scriptures. While trying to prove Sola Scriptura, I discovered the opposite. I kid you not, lol. I realized that while Scriptures are breathed by God, the Church is appointed by God as He also breathed on the Apostles as well. I also realized that there is a lot of Spirituality and Mysticism in the Church as there is also Theology. Our Eastern brothers preserved more Mysticism while we (Western) preserved more Theology. With the Reformation, the break from Theology and Mysticism is even greater. The Reformation is practically all Theology and very little Mysticism; it is becoming a forensic science really.

Our Blessed Mother Mary is the greatest part of the Spiritual Mysticism of the Catholic Church, imho. I missed that so much. Just like I missed the Real Presence. The Communion of Saints and where we gather as a Community in unity of prayer creates a Spiritual Realm within the Church that is palpable through our senses, all of them. It challenges the intellect and makes it thirst for more.

So when I was looking at Sola Scriptura I came to the realization that I can’t reasonably eliminate the Catholic Church from it. After all, it was the Church who received, protected and interpreted Scriptures since the Apostles – St. Phillip and the eunuch – the Holy Spirit leads and the Church follows.

The Church with its human elements is not perfect. However, the Church with its spiritual elements is completely perfect. Because it was established by Christ and it was promised the Holy Spirit. The Spiritual element if the Catholic Church entirely belongs to the Spirit of God.

In matters of Faith the Church has to be correct in its proclamations. No errors. If so, then I can’t say that Scriptures are what they are. How can I be Holy if my Church is not Holy? Just as the Church received the revelation of Scriptures, She has also received the revelation of our Blessed Mother. After all, St. Jude clearly states that the fullness of the Faith was once and for all handed down to the Holy Ones (The Church).
If I am going to trust this same Church with Scriptures, which are breathed by God. Why would I not trust Her with Tradition? The moment I reject any of Her teachings, I am making myself an authority over the Church… there is no way around it, my arrogance and stubbornness will get the best of me at that point.

One of the things that appeals to me about Anglicanism is that it allows for some rather divergent ideas while still remaining within bounds of what the church teaches. For example, it’s possible to be either Calvinist or Arminian with respect to predestination/free will, and yet remain Anglican. I happen to belong to a church that practices infant baptism, but I don’t claim that those who practice believer’s baptism are heretics or non-Christian.

You’d be surprised at how diverse the Catholic Faith really is. Sit and watch a Jesuit have an argument with a Dominican and a Franciscan, lol. There is incredible diversity in Catholicism, but all with boundaries, in order to protect the souls of the faithful.
If we are to open to different ideas and are willing to compromise the truth, we inevitably become Gnostics.

I truly enjoy your passion and the love you have for others, as I perceive that you want to respect their beliefs and want to be considerate with their faith. That’s something I failed to see before and I apologize for that.

May God Bless you on your journey and the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Revelation be present in your life.

Jose

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hello my friends - this thread is awesome thank you - from the position of someone living on a bridge over the Tiber (ok, admittedly not as a “protestant” per se) this is very interesting stuff for me to read.

I suppose I’d say… isn’t this question an indirect question of the omnipotence of God?

One aside I’d like to make here is that men have all sorts of natural, God-given instincts to love and care for and revere women - some of which are pure in nature and almost all of which are often represented as chauvinist and evil in the modern moral ether - we live in a climate where it suits some to present all that is good and ordered and lovely about human nature as base and wicked and oppressive.

If someone said a male-dominated church would want a female figure to revere, that could easily be meant without suggesting they were awful people.

God is our Father. When things are ordered properly, nobody loves daughters like their father.

Christian women really in touch with God and the church seem to really have a sense of this about them (to me) - and I wonder whether this is a big part of why so many women are Christian - but then I could be totally imagining that.

I think a) the understandings of women of God’s love and the woman’s particular kinds of crosses borne, and b) the good and ordered paternalistic instincts of men that we should all celebrate, both feed into the love and reverence of Mary. Bless her.

…OK, I am not given to emotional fireworks, but I just had the most bizarre and unexpected welling up of indescribably strong positive emotions about Mary as I thought about her, who she was and why we revere her - to articulate the last line of that post, to the point where I have a tear in my eye, which is so incredibly uncharacteristic of me it would be less surprising if my head had fallen off, rolled around the floor, and started singing showtunes.

It sounds super melodramatic so I’m a bit embarrassed - forgive my possibly unseemly enthusiasm for a web forum, but I must share - I think I have literally just now truly understood Mary after a lifetime (so far) of not getting it at all, and more recently of being dreadfully afraid of Mariolatry.

Edit: I really can’t thank people enough for posting this discussion of the matter.

Thanks for this post!

Press on towards the goal - Jesus Christ. Our Blessed Virgin Mary can help you get there!

Jose

 

[cheezey]

Hello my friends - this thread is awesome thank you - from the position of someone living on a bridge over the Tiber (ok, admittedly not as a “protestant” per se) this is very interesting stuff for me to read.
Edit: I really can’t thank people enough for posting this discussion of the matter.

It is posts like this that help me to understand also.
I was raised Protestant, always wondering, “What about Mary?!” and this is interesting stuff from which to learn.
So, I this discussion, also.
Thank, E!!!

 

[aidanbradypop]

I truly enjoy your passion and the love you have for others, as I perceive that you want to respect their beliefs and want to be considerate with their faith. That’s something I failed to see before and I apologize for that.

May God Bless you on your journey and the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Revelation be present in your life.

Jose

Its offical…Jose has become SOFT …Just messin with ya

Jr is truly someone I would stand beside and proudly call a brother in Christ!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Its offical…Jose has become SOFT …Just messin with ya

Jr is truly someone I would stand beside and proudly call a brother in Christ!

You know… something happened to me this past weekend.

I went to CRHP :extrahappy: And now I see everyone in a different way I’m not sure I can really explain it.

Blessings your way! Love your threads bro’, keep’em coming!

Jose

 

[aidanbradypop]

You know… something happened to me this past weekend.

I went to CRHP :extrahappy: And now I see everyone in a different way I’m not sure I can really explain it.

Blessings your way! Love your threads bro’, keep’em coming!

Jose

I will be the first to admit I am soft now lol. Ever since starting the Diaconate formation, I tend to view things differently and in a more charitable sense. lol:blush:

 

[Arizona_Samson]

Press on towards the goal - Jesus Christ. Our Blessed Virgin Mary can help you get there!

Jose

Where does the Bible teach this?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Where does the Bible teach this?

Please dont bring that into the thread. If you have a view on the Blessed Mother, share it. It will take us off topic. Thanks