Protestant View of Mariology

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American Protestant Christianity has so much of its roots of faith severed, and subsequently has lost such a profound enrichment of faith and communion, history, to it ending up being pretty much one-dimensional, and a faith centered more on American material well being with no depth.

I also read some where that democracy has its limits. When the majority of a country’s citizens no longer have a strong moral fiber, irregardless they rule. We see it in our country today. Traditionally, the best form of government is a monarchy, again providing the moral fortitude.

It is easier to envision Mary as Queen, because Christ is King, of the line of King David.

Moral fortitude, that transcends any form of government, has to come from somewhere.

And the Church, in spite of its own interior need for reform from time to time, has never failed in providing the life of Christ and moral fiber to society, because there is no perfect form of government.

Mary was conceived without sin. But to see her in some kind of image representing the ‘Moral Majority’, is something hard to envision.

Christ came from Mary, but His kingdom is not of this world. He even uses the form, ‘kingdom’, not democracy…a kingship…a queenship.
 
KathleenGee;10832844]American Protestant Christianity has so much of its roots of faith severed, and subsequently has lost such a profound enrichment of faith and communion, history, to it ending up being pretty much one-dimensional, and a faith centered more on American material well being with no depth.
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Greetings KathleenGee, good to see you on the boards:)

It would appear that our evangelical and non-catholic christians in general, have moved away from Sacred Scripture supported from apostolic Sacred Tradition, to invent their own traditions and interpretations of scripture that come from the invented doctrine of men not God’s revelation.

Catholics do not have such a freedom in the Kingdom of God, to object to God’s revelation’s and interpret and believe about God what ever we want to believe. The Rock which Jesus built His Church can never be moved by every wind of doctrine that has come from men. Especially when the Rock is never moved by emotions and motivations from men that entice one’s spirit to fall into heresy or false doctrine from men.

Peace be with you;
Gabe;
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
Greetings KathleenGee, good to see you on the boards:)

It would appear that our evangelical and non-catholic christians in general, have moved away from Sacred Scripture supported from apostolic Sacred Tradition, to invent their own traditions and interpretations of scripture that come from the invented doctrine of men not God’s revelation.

Catholics do not have such a freedom in the Kingdom of God, to object to God’s revelation’s and interpret and believe about God what ever we want to believe. The Rock which Jesus built His Church can never be moved by every wind of doctrine that has come from men. Especially when the Rock is never moved by emotions and motivations from men that entice one’s spirit to fall into heresy or false doctrine from men.

Peace be with you;
Gabe;
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We have the freedom, but I hope and pray that we trust in the Church to guide us to God’s Will and Revelation. 👍
 
So much of the history of the lives of the saints, that testify to the new life in Jesus Christ through the Eucharist and a life of loving service and penance has been lost.

The more sacraments are dropped, – and their necessary existence through the hierarchical priesthood, – the more of the wholeness of faith lived out in salvation history is lost.

Subsequently, there is so much to overcome in communicating with our separated brethren to rebuild foundation and the roots of our tradition of faith---- how it has been lived out since the beginning.

God did not let us design how we want Him to be worshipped. Instead, in the Book of Exodus, it shows in great detail…down to the designs of the vestments of the priest robes, how the Lord dictated His worship, His temple, His priesthood, and the sacrificial nature of worship for the atonement of sin.

And Jesus gave us the new worship in the form of the Be’Kaa, the Memorial through the restoration of us as adopted sons and daughters through the familial breaking of bread.

Through Jesus, we extend the kingship, the fulfillment of the prophets, and redemption to the world around us.

Mary is the Queen of Christ’s kingdom, because Jesus Himself is her crowning glory who gave Him His body and blood.
 
Good to see you here as well, Gabriel. I am hoping to witness a great conversion in our family.
 
PRmerger said:
So, Monergistic, could you please address the question of the Eastern churches and your argument that their view of Mary is not royal?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...ScL_XS1sK1453YqpUNbqvGXQHlUhHllMqG6rx9-JJH4Fq

Hellenic Orthodox Church
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Out of curiosity: has anyone read “Wider Than Heaven: 8th Century Homilies on the Mother of God”, published by St, Vladimir’s Seminary Press?

Back to the OP: there is not “the Protestant view” on Mary. There are many. More exactly, she is usually simply ignored.
 
PRmerger said:
So, Monergistic, could you please address the question of the Eastern churches and your argument that their view of Mary is not royal?
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I said there were some differences and distinctions. I wasn’t that specific. Now I will be.

Orthodox and Catholics are on the same page with the title Theotokos, perpetual virginity, and with venerating Mary. But the Orthodox never developed the idea that Mary was born without sin (Immaculate Conception) or the co-redeemer idea. And let’s not forget that the title Queen of Heaven is strictly a Western title. Ad Caeli Reginam applies in the west; it is not ecumenical in any sense broader than the CC west of the Schism.

That was theology, and this is art. Eastern art occasionally includes a crown on the head of Mary for reasons that the EO can explain for themselves, but there is one theme that appears only in the west and almost exclusively in Italian art between the 14th and early 16th centuries. That theme is the coronation of Mary. Examples- Velazquez, Fra Angelico, Lorenzo Monaco, Filippo Lippi, Raphael. Mary is depicted being crowned by Christ, sometimes accompanied by God the Father and/or the Holy Spirit. Early versions of the theme have a pretty standard form with Mary and Jesus sitting on thrones side by side, but it gets more complicated and varied over time.

The crown of Mary (or crown of Virgins) sometimes has more to do with Mary’s descent from the House pf David and with her personal qualities. Other times, it has to do with her queenship over a heavenly court as the mother and bride of Christ (Santa Maria in Trastevere in Rome, for example). The difference is pretty obvious, and the second thing is hardly ever seen outside Italy and that theme is never seen in the East.

There’s a lot in common, but there are some differences. The East hasn’t ever signed off on everything that you’d like them to, so please don’t pretend that it does.
 
Monergistic said:
And let’s not forget that the title Queen of Heaven is strictly a Western title.
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Really.

So what do you think this Orthodox Church is proclaiming Mary to be Queen of…New Jersey?

And why do you think this website says something that is directly contradictory to your proclamation?

theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/ocrc/2009/06/st-mary-in-the-orthodox-church/
Originally posted on an Orthodox Church website: Queen of heaven, Holy Ark, Mother of God!
St.Mary is bestowed with many titles by the Orthodox Church.
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Monergistic said:
Eastern art occasionally includes a crown on the head of Mary for reasons that the EO can explain for themselves,
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Yep. Pretty much because they say that Mary is, well, Queen of Heaven. Royal.
but there is one theme that appears only in the west and almost exclusively in Italian art between the 14th and early 16th centuries. That theme is the coronation of Mary. Examples- Velazquez, Fra Angelico, Lorenzo Monaco, Filippo Lippi, Raphael. Mary is depicted being crowned by Christ, sometimes accompanied by God the Father and/or the Holy Spirit. Early versions of the theme have a pretty standard form with Mary and Jesus sitting on thrones side by side, but it gets more complicated and varied over time
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Fascinating, but really a non-sequitur here.
The East hasn’t ever signed off on everything that you’d like them to, so please don’t pretend that it does.
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As it pertains to this discussion of a royal heavenly family with Mary’s Queenship, it does appear that the Eastern Christian Churches are indeed in sync with the CC.

This makes your argument that Mary’s Queenship is a western or European innovation untenable.
 
PRmerger said:
This makes your argument that Mary’s Queenship is a western or European innovation untenable.
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Ok then. Formally, there is no EO dogma concerning Mary’s Queenship, but perhaps I was focusing too much on that. Informally, while the EO are not completely the same as Catholics on this, they are much further away from being anything like Protestants.

You good?
 
KathleenGee said:
I also read some where that democracy has its limits. When the majority of a country’s citizens no longer have a strong moral fiber, irregardless they rule. We see it in our country today. Traditionally, the best form of government is a monarchy, again providing the moral fortitude.
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I read some where that on any reasonably long time scale, monarchy gives you some difficulty with peaceful transfer of power, lines of succession, and producing quality leaders based strictly on bloodline. I think that was a historical source, somewhere, like pick from any of them.

As an example, let’s try this on for size. Apply this to the papacy. Starting now, popes get married and have kids. Oldest son becomes king, I’m sorry, pope when his father dies or maybe a little earlier, we’ll figure that out as we go. Then his son becomes pope and so on, or someone else down the line of succession if you need to go there. We’ll do the whole thing, like it was always traditionally done with monarchies.

Moral fortitude! Best form of government, right? Simple application in the most obvious place, I’m just saying.
 
jrtrent said:
As the earthly mother of Jesus, highly favored of God and used in bringing forth our Lord in a miraculous way, Mary is to be respected and honored. I do not believe in the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, or assumption of Mary. I do not believe she can hear our prayers or in any way mediate for us with God. However, she is, as Elisabeth said, blessed among women, and as Mary said, “he that is mighty hath done to me great things,” and “from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”
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Jrtrent,

Virgin Mary can hear prayers. Did not Abraham who was in paradise hear the pray of Lazarus who was in hell.

Jrtrent, read Luke 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Jrtrent, If someone in hell like lazarus can pray to Abraham why can’t we Pray to Mary the Mother of God.

Jrent, this Bible passage above prove you wrong. Those who have gone before us can pray for us…“For God is the God of the living not the dead”

Jrent, however you quote the bible well, re: " Mary said, “he that is mighty hath done to me great things,”

Jrent, what are Her GREAT THINGSSSSS that ]God has done to Her, have you ever asked yourself that question? I tell you one, of Many and that is the Immaculate Conception.

Ufam Tobie

Ufam Tobie
 
Now that I’m warming up to the idea of praying to saints (and the Blessed Virgin Mary), do you think they hear the prayers of non-Catholics (e.g., Protestants)?
 
Jeremiah 29:13 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.”
 
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