Protestant View of Mariology

[PRmerger]

As an example, let’s try this on for size. Apply this to the papacy. Starting now, popes get married and have kids. Oldest son becomes king, I’m sorry, pope when his father dies or maybe a little earlier, we’ll figure that out as we go. Then his son becomes pope and so on, or someone else down the line of succession if you need to go there. We’ll do the whole thing, like it was always traditionally done with monarchies.

If this were the way that the Holy Spirit intended to guide His Church, then no one ought to be opposed to this. After all, if the leader is being inspired by the 3rd Person of the Holy Trinity, what’s not to like about that?

 

[PRmerger]

Ok then. Formally, there is no EO dogma concerning Mary’s Queenship, but perhaps I was focusing too much on that. Informally, while the EO are not completely the same as Catholics on this, they are much further away from being anything like Protestants.

You good?

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make, so I really can’t say if I’m good with this or not.

Your original premise was that the concept of a heavenly royal court, with Mary as Queen of heaven, is a western innovation.

We have shown that your premise is incorrect. The concept of a heavenly royal court is based on the OT, not western monarchies.

Then you also argued that it is a western innovation because the Eastern churches do not have any concept of Mary as a royal figure.

That also has been proven incorrect.

So I’m not sure what you are arguing in the above post.

 

[Justmyself777]

For me, Mary should be honored. After all, she’s the mother of our savior, Jesus. I know a few Protestants who see Mary as a pagan god or some sort.

 

[EIF5A]

What exactly does being “Queen of Heaven” entail?

It gets confusing — God the Father and God the Son are one and co-eternal. Mary gave birth to Jesus, becoming mother of God.

But Mary is not the mother of God the Father, and God the Father is King, and the only reason Mary is queen is because of her mothership to God the Son.

If Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father, where is Mary? Is she next to Jesus or bowing down before the Holy Trinity like the rest of created beings?

Is Mary “Queen of Heaven” or “queen of Heaven”?

 

[PRmerger]

What exactly does being “Queen of Heaven” entail?

Nothing more and nothing less than veneration and respect as a member of the heavenly royal family.

It gets confusing — God the Father and God the Son are one and co-eternal. Mary gave birth to Jesus, becoming mother of God

Yes.

But Mary is not the mother of God the Father, and God the Father is King, and the only reason Mary is queen is because of her mothership to God the Son.

Jesus is not King in most Protestant circles?

I thought I had heard a Christian rock band perform a song about “King Jesus”.

If Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father, where is Mary? Is she next to Jesus or bowing down before the Holy Trinity like the rest of created beings?

I don’t know. We are free to speculate. I envision the proverbial Catholic both/and.

Is Mary “Queen of Heaven” or “queen of Heaven”?

What difference do you think is manifested by the capital emphasis?

 

[EIF5A]

Nothing more and nothing less than veneration and respect as a member of the heavenly royal family.

Yes.

Jesus is not King in most Protestant circles?

I thought I had heard a Christian rock band perform a song about “King Jesus”.

I don’t know. We are free to speculate. I envision the proverbial Catholic both/and.

What difference do you think is manifested by the capital emphasis?

Well, yes, Jesus is King – Father and the Son are one. But Mary is also not the mother of God the Father.

Has any Catholic (or Orthodox) theologian fully articulated/written about the mystery of the Holy Trinity?

(And of course you had to insert a jab about Protestant rock bands , even though Protestantism wasn’t even mentioned, nor is anything I said a Protestant innovation.)

The lower-case Q implies a place of honor but a place below the King of Heaven and not as a co-regnant with God.

 

[Tomyris]

I am not interested in Luther’s or Calvin’s view so please do not make this thread another Luther bashing one! Thanks I would like to know your personal opinion of Mariology?

For me, the Blessed Virgin Mother holds a dear place in my heart.

I thought I would give this a go.

For one thing, I don’t know what to make of Mariology.

For another thing, this situation is well described by C.S.Lewis. One side tends to view the other side as committing idolatry and the other side views the other side as insulting their mother, so I am really hesitant to say much.

I may post a few thoughts on this subject, but this is the preface and I think possibly worthy of discussion in its own right.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well, yes, Jesus is King – Father and the Son are one. But Mary is also not the mother of God the Father.

catholic.com/tracts/mary-mother-of-god

“Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God.”

Still think the Q should be lower case? :Just gets more profound as you go along?

 

[SteveVH]

What exactly does being “Queen of Heaven” entail?

It gets confusing — God the Father and God the Son are one and co-eternal. Mary gave birth to Jesus, becoming mother of God.

But Mary is not the mother of God the Father, and God the Father is King, and the only reason Mary is queen is because of her mothership to God the Son.

If Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father, where is Mary? Is she next to Jesus or bowing down before the Holy Trinity like the rest of created beings?

Is Mary “Queen of Heaven” or “queen of Heaven”?

Mary is the daughter of the Father, the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the mother of the Son. No other human being can claim this relationship with the Trinity. In the OT the Queen Mother was the mother of the king, not his wife. In this case she is the mother of the “King of Kings” and therefore deserves the respect and honor of everyone who loves and worships the King.

 

[EIF5A]

catholic.com/tracts/mary-mother-of-god

“Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God.”

Still think the Q should be lower case? :Just gets more profound as you go along?

Yes. The Trinity = 3 Distinct Persons…yet same substance…

Is Mary the mother of God the Father? Does she reign in heaven with equal might as God? Does God need a Queen?

Is her blessedness one of honor or power?

 

[SteveVH]

Yes. The Trinity = 3 Distinct Persons…yet same substance…

Is Mary the mother of God the Father? Does she reign in heaven with equal might as God? Does God need a Queen?

Is her blessedness one of honor or power?

Read some of the other posts, like the one right above your post to which I am responding. Mary is the mother of Jesus, the Kink of Kings. That is why she of the Queen of heaven and earth, because he is the King of heaven and earth.

Mary is a creature, just like us. She is not divine, she is human. We do not pray to Mary as we pray to God. We ask her to pray for us; to intercede on our behalf; to go to her Son just as she did at the wedding feast of Cana and make a plea to him on our behalf. No different than me asking you to pray for me. But she is the mother of Jesus and Jesus will not refuse his mother’s request just as he did not refuse her request at Cana even thought it was “not yet his time”.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, yes, Jesus is King – Father and the Son are one. But Mary is also not the mother of God the Father.

So then you can understand where Mary gets her title as Queen, yes?

Has any Catholic (or Orthodox) theologian fully articulated/written about the mystery of the Holy Trinity?

I don’t think the mystery of the Trinity could ever be fully articulated.

(And of course you had to insert a jab about Protestant rock bands , even though Protestantism wasn’t even mentioned, nor is anything I said a Protestant innovation.)

Your position is a Protestant position.

I simply showed you that there are some other Protestants (most of them, in fact) who say that Jesus is indeed King, not just God the Father is King.

The lower-case Q implies a place of honor but a place below the King of Heaven and not as a co-regnant with God.

Mary, as a creature, will never be equal to the Creator. But your assigning meaning to queen of heaven vs “Queen of Heaven” is an arbitrary assignation.

 

[Tomyris]

So then you can understand where Mary gets her title as Queen, yes?

I am really leery of this title, and trying to read the Davidic queens as a prototype of Mary. The premier example seems to be 1 Kings 2, and the requester, Adonijah, winds up getting executed for asking through the Queen Mother - not exactly how we want our prayers answered. I have not found anything that convinces me the title is appropriate.

That being said, if anyone would get a big reward in heaven, I would think it would be Mary, and I for one would not begrudge her any honor God is happy to give her. If she showed up at my door she would certainly be a welcome guest and I would do my best to make her feel comfortable.

AND the adopted sons and daughters of God are exactly that - members of a royal household, and in that sense essentially the same as Mary, with varying degrees of honor and glory as the Father is pleased to give them.

I don’t think the mystery of the Trinity could ever be fully articulated.

Augustine, Basil, Hilary of Poitiers and others have given it a pretty good shot. I don’t know if Athanasius wrote the Athanasian creed, but there is that as well.

Your position is a Protestant position.

I simply showed you that there are some other Protestants (most of them, in fact) who say that Jesus is indeed King, not just God the Father is King.

Now you are getting into the technical differences between the members of the Trinity. The ONLY difference between the Father and the Son is that the Son is generated by the Father, and the ONLY difference between the Father and the Spirit is that the Spirit is sent. I’ll stay away from the filioque here. They share honor, regency, glory, rule, etc.

Mary, as a creature, will never be equal to the Creator. But your assigning meaning to queen of heaven vs “Queen of Heaven” is an arbitrary assignation.

The typical Protestant reaction to the phrase “Queen of heaven” is that there the Catholics go committing idolatry again. I don’t think you are shutting the door to error when you use that phrase, even among Catholics. I watched with fascination a discussion between a priest and a particular Catholic. The PC was insistent that Mary was divine: full-fledged deity, and calling her anything less was an insult to her. I don’t think the priest really got through to the PC. The PC used the titles of Mary, including QoH, to demonstrate her divine nature, and insisted also that being the Mother of God meant she must also be God. I think a lot of Marian theology can be dangerous and lead people into error with misleading and flowery language. Certainly a lot of it is a stumbling block to Protestants who take it at face value, and to Catholics as well, who are not necessarily well catechized.

 

[PRmerger]

I am really leery of this title, and trying to read the Davidic queens as a prototype of Mary.

Why, Tomy?

I suggest that the 'leeriness" you feel may be the same “leeriness” a Muslim who is considering converting to Christianity may feel about crossing the threshold and saying that a man could be divine. It is just so ingrained in him to believe that the Numinous could not condescend to becoming man that he just can’t go there.

(NB: Folks! Please do not make the mistake of thinking that in the above analogy I am “equating” Mary with Christ, as in, “Just like a Muslim needs to accept that Jesus is divine you need to accept that Mary is divine!”)

 

[PRmerger]

AND the adopted sons and daughters of God are exactly that - members of a royal household, and in that sense essentially the same as Mary, with varying degrees of honor and glory as the Father is pleased to give them.

YES, Tomy, YES, YES and YES!

That is exactly what Catholic teaching on Mary proclaims: all the joys and veneration due to Mary are also ours to receive, should we follow in her footsteps and submit completely to the Divine Will.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

For those who adore the Incarnation, the blessed Mother of God is central. Both Lutherans and Catholics invoking Mary at Mass.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Basically comes right down to how we understand and believe in the Incarnation.

One point. The essence of God doesn’t change it is immutable. We define the essence from the existence in Jesus Christ fully human fully divine which we don’t divide. A conceptual reality divinely revealed in understanding the unchangeable essence and existence of One infinite God , they are logically conceived as separate, the Trinity, and we define the persons to understand and be drawn to Gods Grace by His will [He does the watering in the Garden]. In the essence and existence of infinite God, they are not immutable, we use the terms; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, being of one substance with the Father. One God whos essence and existence is immutable.

Or for another example, what are we to say of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary. Is this not representative of Union between man and wife. We don’t call the Holy Spirit the husband of Mary and father to Jesus though. For we are talking One God.

Mary is the Mother of God, not just the humanity of Jesus, but the divinity, who’s essence and existence never changed, nor can the humanity/divinity be separated but again for a conceptual understanding of this reality and mystery. While Mary is not Mother to Gods essence in its origin, for it has none, and in a word, its why we call Him God, She is Mother to His essence in Jesus Christ Her Son the living God in a very real way. This merited Her the title Mother of God etc. But as to Mother of God it is impossible in reality to divide Gods essence.

Tis why the Incarnation is a great mystery. Not because it cannot be understood, but because Gods essence and existence could never be fully understood but through His will [watering] and our acknowledgement of His existence in worship and contrition. Grace/Communion with the Lord.

 

[PRmerger]

Has any Catholic (or Orthodox) theologian fully articulated/written about the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

I don’t think the mystery of the Trinity could ever be fully articulated.

Augustine, Basil, Hilary of Poitiers and others have given it a pretty good shot. I don’t know if Athanasius wrote the Athanasian creed, but there is that as well.

I think that all of these theological giants would be the first to admit that they hadn’t even begun to scratch the surface of the mystery of the Trinity.

In fact, in a legend attached to St. Augustine, he is reported to have said, regarding his treatises on the Trinity in a story about the Christ-child appearing to him, “It is no more impossible than what you are trying to do – comprehend the immensity of the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your small intelligence.”

 

[PRmerger]

The typical Protestant reaction to the phrase “Queen of heaven” is that there the Catholics go committing idolatry again. I don’t think you are shutting the door to error when you use that phrase, even among Catholics. I watched with fascination a discussion between a priest and a particular Catholic. The PC was insistent that Mary was divine: full-fledged deity, and calling her anything less was an insult to her. I don’t think the priest really got through to the PC. The PC used the titles of Mary, including QoH, to demonstrate her divine nature, and insisted also that being the Mother of God meant she must also be God. I think a lot of Marian theology can be dangerous and lead people into error with misleading and flowery language. Certainly a lot of it is a stumbling block to Protestants who take it at face value, and to Catholics as well, who are not necessarily well catechized.

I suppose this would be as persuasive as if a Muslim said, "I heard a Christian in dialogue with his minister and the Christian was insisting that his Bible actually should be worshipped. The Christian said, “It’s the Word of God and therefore anything that is the Word must be worshipped!”

I think the correct response to both of these examples is: those poor hapless folks just got it soooo wrong. NOT: “I think that we need to change the way we phrase things because people misunderstand what we mean.”

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Basically comes right down to how we understand and believe in the Incarnation.

One point. The essence of God doesn’t change it is immutable. We define the essence from the existence in Jesus Christ fully human fully divine which we don’t divide. A conceptual reality divinely revealed in understanding the unchangeable essence and existence of One infinite God , they are logically conceived as separate, the Trinity, and we define the persons to understand and be drawn to Gods Grace by His will [He does the watering in the Garden]. In the essence and existence of infinite God, they are not immutable, we use the terms; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, being of one substance with the Father. One God whos essence and existence is immutable.

Or for another example, what are we to say of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary. Is this not representative of Union between man and wife. We don’t call the Holy Spirit the husband of Mary and father to Jesus though. For we are talking One God.

Mary is the Mother of God, not just the humanity of Jesus, but the divinity, who’s essence and existence never changed, nor can the humanity/divinity be separated but again for a conceptual understanding of this reality and mystery. While Mary is not Mother to Gods essence in its origin, for it has none, and in a word, its why we call Him God, **She is Mother to His essence in Jesus Christ Her Son the living God in a very real way. This merited Her the title Mother of God etc. But as to Mother of God it is impossible in reality to divide Gods essence. **
Tis why the Incarnation is a great mystery. Not because it cannot be understood, but because Gods essence and existence could never be fully understood but through His will [watering] and our acknowledgement of His existence in worship and contrition. Grace/Communion with the Lord.

Excellent points! Particularly like

“She is Mother to His essence in Jesus Christ Her Son the living God in a very real way. This merited Her the title Mother of God etc. But as to Mother of God it is impossible in reality to divide Gods essence”.