Protestant View of Mariology

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No, brumano.

Our hosts, the Catholic Answers staff, completely disagree with your position regarding the “argument of necessity.” They state, “The reason we don’t use that argument is precisely that it’s not a good one.”

They go on to state:

"Don’t use the easily refutable argument of necessity; the argument of fittingness is much better. It was fitting that God willed that Mary was conceived free from all sin, since she was chosen to be the Ark of the New Covenant, the mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the incarnate Word of God. The Father didn’t have to do it that way, but it was fitting that he did. For a more detailed discussion of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception see Bishop Ullathorne, The Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God (Westminster, MD: Christian Classics, 1988 ed.) and Patrick Madrid, “Ark of the New Covenant” (This Rock, December 1991).

Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff
source: catholic.com/quickquestions/without-the-immaculate-conception-would-jesus-have-inherited-his-mothers-sinful-natur (bold mine)
I do not know that “fittingness” is a good argument. He was born in a stable; a palace would have been fitting. He, the Word, was misunderstood; He the Law was defied, He Life died. We celebrate and ponder on the contradictions of His life. He was rejected and despised, a man of sorrow and acquainted with grief. Were these things fitting to His place and stature?

That is to say absolutely nothing at all against His mother, that is merely to point out what seems a weakness in logic.
 
I do not know that “fittingness” is a good argument. He was born in a stable; a palace would have been fitting.
No, Tomy. That is a human (and the ancient Jewish) notion of how the Messiah would come.

But being born in stable, wrapped in a clean and undefiled garment, was utterly proper and fitting place for the Word made Flesh.
 
Paul’s letters were the first, they were claimed to be Scripture by Peter. Paul did however quote a saying in the Gospel of Luke as Scripture in 1 Timothy. Obviously Peter believed that Paul’s letters should be a part of the NT canon.
Why does Paul never mention that the Book of Revelation is* theopneustos*? That would have been so helpful during the 400 years of discussions among the Catholic bishops as to whether it belonged in the canon or not.
 
Yes, and the rosary combined I do disagree with. Although, it doesn’t bother me but I feel as if I don’t have to do some of these things that the CC teaches we must do.
You seem to be operating under some great misapprehensions regarding Catholicism.

For the record: there is no teaching in the Church that any Catholic must pray the rosary. Ever.
 
Actually, they’re incorrect. One cannot ignore John 1 and say that it doesn’t point to Jesus as God unless one changes what it says. The Word was God vs the Word was a god.
Right. But we are not talking about Biblical "proof’ of the Incarnation but the Trinity.

One could read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and never get that the God of the Bible is a Triune God.

You get that idea from the Church. From Sacred Tradition.
Anyone who has the translation “The Word was God / The Word became flesh” would accept the Trinitarian view. JW’s are considered un-Christian by every Trinitarian denomination, which would make up the majority of Protestant denominations. The existence of a sect that denies Christ’s divinity doesn’t make the ones who accept His divinity any less valid.
They believe in the same Bible that you do, dronald.

And that’s the problem, isn’t it? They feel that they can just read the Bible apart from the Church which gave them this Bible…and because of that they come to all sorts of erroneous, weird ideas.

They have ignored the Mother’s hand to guide them and have strayed very very far off the path.
 
If this Church has brought a single soul to know Jesus Christ who would otherwise never learnt about Him than I am grateful and so should you be.
Really? Even if they taught hateful, odious things?
Anyways, I did a quick wiki on, “storefront Church” and it doesn’t sound so terrible. Give a read! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storefront_church Sounds like they actually have done some good, and you can’t argue with that.
What are their doctrines?
So you admit then that people could come to a truth centuries later?
Sure. And you do too.

It’s called the canon of the NT. This truth did not come until 4 centuries later.
I suppose this destroys the argument that the late existence of the first Protestant Church makes any Protestant denomination a failure.
It does if it cannot be traced to any Apostolic teaching/succession.
If you were to explain the Trinity to a fellow Catholic I would assume you would point to many of Paul’s writings. I know I would.
I wouldn’t point to only the Bible, though. Using only the Bible is like playing Bach with only one hand. Better to use both hands: Scripture AND Tradition.
 
If you study the Bible alone and do not know how faith was put into practice by the Apostles and the earliest church practices – called Tradition – How the Church lived out its faith, you will miss the testimony of our earliest saints.

Reading the testimony of saints and common themes of faith reinforce the teachings and continuity of the Apostles that is lived out, not as individuals but in a disciplined public gathering of people.

If you study Scripture under individual leaders who have no background from where our faith and Church came in Christ, you are missing what it means to be as Church.

The early teachers submitted their reflections to the Church for review and discernment. Theology, Christology, was science in itself, but because of all the issues of the Church’s earliest times, persecutions, communication, and so on, theology’s development evolved.

But it is the same faith bearing the same fruit of Jesus Christ, this continuity of faith lived out in communion with each other, including those who have gone before us.

Devotion to the Blessed Mother was defined in practice by the laity, and she herself gave much insight into the life of Christ in advising the Apostles.

To be able to witness the presence of God in an infant, Who was to be sacrificed for the atonement of sin, One Who would be the cause for the rise and fall of many, this revealed only 40 days after His birth, would be quite sobering to Mary, His mother. Her suffering began at His presentation to God.

There is so much to learn about Mary, and what Scripture does not say about her, actually in reflection, says alot about her. If people are indoctrinated their entire Protestant lives to have a disregard for her with no outward devotion for thanksgiving for her Yes to God, it is very difficult to overcome them to see that Woman has a place in God’s designs, that our faith is not fundamentalist for the authority of the male gender.

In the Lord, there are no male or female.
 
Who listen to the word of God and puts it into practice more than Virgin Mary? I tell you no one.🙂 That is why Virgin Mary is the Best role Model after Jesus Christ, and the reason why she is Our Mother.
I don’t think Catholics should think that Protestants dislike Mary or something. We like her lots!
Really? Peter was already discussing and formulating the NT canon? Where else does Peter remotely mention the NT canon? Why? Because he believes Paul’s letters were Scripture? Sorry,but one’s belief (Peter) was not the only criteria in determing the NT canon, goes a lot deeper. If Peter knew it should have been in the NT canon, then how odd the NT canon was not finalized for another 400 years?

Where are the ancient writings outside the NT supporting your claim? Funny you say such a thing,when not one other NT author seems to mention a word about Peter believing Paul’s letters should be part of the NT canon? Yet you ask the same about Paul not mentioning Mary? Why is that with Protestants? Because it conflicts with their novelties or their lack of understanding the term Apostolic Traditions?

You still have failed to answer. Why? Because you know what I am telling you cannot be answered because not ONE NT author or Apostle ever mentions the NT canon-right? You evidently like every Protestant accepts the 27 NT canon,yet not ONE Apostle or NT author ever bothers to mention or hint…anywhere. Why do you accept the NT canon if the Bible says nothing and I mean nothing about formulating a 27 NT canon.

You are making the big leap of assuming because Peter claimed Paul’s letters were Scripture, it proves the canon was in progress. Sorry,but you are leaving a lot of factors out which involved in the process of the NT canon. Just because Peter said Pauls letters were Scripture does not conclusively prove the NT canon is being mentioned implicitly. That is pure conjecture and simply fabricating false ideas about formulation of the NT canon and its history.
The NT Canon as a whole was put together later as you know. As strikingly awesome it would be if Paul said, “By the way, in the future we’ll have 4 Gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All my letters will be Scripture, same with the letters James, Peter, John and Jude write. Also, John will have a bit of a Revelation, so that’s important too.”

The fact that the letters were written by the Apostles and the Gospel of Thomas was not, is enough for me to accept that I should read them as authoritative. Also, if in the writings they said, “veneration of Mary is important.” I might put more attention on her. After all, this discussion IS about Mary isn’t it?
Sorry,but that is a bad comparison. We are talking about the woman who brought the Incarnate God into the world. As for limits? Last time I checked Protestants are the one’s placing limits on God in regards to Mary.
I suppose if God makes all in Heaven omnipotent that’s something God does. I don’t have the text to support a claim but what I do know is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are completely omnipotent. Because I know this for a fact I don’t need to believe that Mary is ever present answering all of our requests. I know that God is though! This however is not enough for some Catholics.
First of all, in responding I am assuming that the word “un-biblical” means something that contradicts Scripture, rather than something that just isn’t in Scripture. Can you give an example of one of our Popes saying something that contradicts Sacred Scripture? It would really help the discussion if you could give a concrete example, rather than just a general statement in this regard.

Secondly, how do you arrive at a determination as to what practices or beliefs, or statements are biblical and what are un-biblical? Is this based upon your opinion of Scripture or is there some other authority on which you rely for truth?

And no, not everything a pope has ever said is biblical. They are only infallible in matters of faith and morals, but when speaking on faith and morals, no we have zero popes who have ever changed Catholic doctrine which covers both faith and morals. And this includes not only Sacred Scripture but Sacred Tradition as well. They both make up the one deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles. The New Testament was born out of Sacred Tradition, but is only that part committed to writing. Together they comprise the fullness of truth and none of it is unbiblical.

Peace.
Steve, the reason there are Protestants is because they don’t agree with the practices of the Catholic Church at all times. Let’s just say that the Pope was turning over a man for heresy now to be burned at the stake; the way the world is now we would be able to separate ourselves from that. Unfortunately in the year 950 if a Pope was killing heretics there was no way to separate yourself from the Church. You were stuck! We are no longer stuck because of a much needed reformation. Wouldn’t you separate yourself from the Pope if he was calling for the fourth crusade? Maybe some Catholics wouldn’t, but I think it’s important that people have the freedom to do so without suffering persecution.
 
You seem to be operating under some great misapprehensions regarding Catholicism.

For the record: there is no teaching in the Church that any Catholic must pray the rosary. Ever.
Yes, I’ve heard. So if I was to join the CC and rejected some of their practices would I feel uncomfortable?
They believe in the same Bible that you do, dronald.

And that’s the problem, isn’t it? They feel that they can just read the Bible apart from the Church which gave them this Bible…and because of that they come to all sorts of erroneous, weird ideas.
They actually read a different Bible. One that fits their beliefs. Basically if a JW came over and I read from the KJV he would say it’s not the proper translation.
Really? Even if they taught hateful, odious things?
What are their doctrines?
From what I’ve read, that’s not the intention of this specific Church. If they are teaching hate, it’s up to us as Protestants and Catholics to refute such hate.
I wouldn’t point to only the Bible, though. Using only the Bible is like playing Bach with only one hand. Better to use both hands: Scripture AND Tradition.
Great analogy! But I disagree, I believe the Bible can prove the Trinity.
There is so much to learn about Mary, and what Scripture does not say about her, actually in reflection, says alot about her. If people are indoctrinated their entire Protestant lives to have a disregard for her with no outward devotion for thanksgiving for her Yes to God, it is very difficult to overcome them to see that Woman has a place in God’s designs, that our faith is not fundamentalist for the authority of the male gender.

In the Lord, there are no male or female.
A couple things here: I don’t believe that Protestants reject the extreme devotion to Mary in Catholicism due to her gender. Sexism is always wrong and I don’t think it’s a practice in any Protestant circle to be sexist just because the leaders have been predominately male throughout Biblical history.

And secondly, all the Priests, Bishops, Cardinals and Popes are men, so this statement seems even more contradictory to Catholic teaching.
 
dronald:
The NT Canon as a whole was put together later as you know. As strikingly awesome it would be if Paul said, “By the way, in the future we’ll have 4 Gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All my letters will be Scripture, same with the letters James, Peter, John and Jude write. Also, John will have a bit of a Revelation, so that’s important too.”
The fact that the letters were written by the Apostles and the Gospel of Thomas was not, is enough for me to accept that I should read them as authoritative. Also, if in the writings they said, “veneration of Mary is important.” I might put more attention on her. After all, this discussion IS about Mary isn’t it?
Okay,but do you not acknowledge how you are picking and choosing? You just said, if the writings mentioned “veneration to Mary” you would place more attention to her-right? Again…where does anyone in the NT mention the canon of Scripture? Why do you not question it and/or ignore it all together? I have yet to meet one Protestant who questions the 27 NT canon (not mentioned in the Bible) like they do with Mary? Again…why?

The issue here is not authority applied to scripture,but the fact the NT canon is no where mentioned or discusses in scripture. However, as a Protestant you accept the decision of the Catholic/Orthodox church which formulated and canonized the NT centuries after the Apostles. Historically speaking, it is a fact of church history and no amount of denials by anyone will make it go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Sorry,but that is a bad comparison. We are talking about the woman who brought the Incarnate God into the world. As for limits? Last time I checked Protestants are the one’s placing limits on God in regards to Mary.
dronald:
I suppose if God makes all in Heaven omnipotent that’s something God does. I don’t have the text to support a claim but what I do know is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are completely omnipotent. Because I know this for a fact I don’t need to believe that Mary is ever present answering all of our requests. I know that God is though! This however is not enough for some Catholics.
Really? Then tell me why God created angels who are much more superior than humans to manifest to humans and instruct them about God? Do you really believe angels also cannot present our petitions before God?

What on earth makes you believe Catholics (faithful ones) and the Catholic Church believes God’s Infinite love, power and knowledge is not enough?
 
The issue here is not authority applied to scripture,but the fact the NT canon is no where mentioned or discusses in scripture. However, as a Protestant you accept the decision of the Catholic/Orthodox church which formulated and canonized the NT centuries after the Apostles. Historically speaking, it is a fact of church history and no amount of denials by anyone will make it go away.
I’d like to point something out right quick…Protestants are extremely consistent in affirming the same 27 books of the NT canon, but we’re also awfully consistent in excluding the deuterocanon and maintaining that all that mess is apocryphal.

Do we really accept the decision of the Catholic/Orthodox church re:the canon? Really? Because we don’t have the same canon as either of you, and I don’t believe “the canon” was ever arrived at piecemeal, it was and always has been of a piece. Authoritatively and finally, officially set after the Schism and even after the Reformation, which is also well worth pointing out and I may even say that again because it sounds so nice, but in all the time that the canon was handled in some way, everything was taken together and not handled separately.

Now, there is something to explore with the NT books taken alone (27 books) and that whole thing, but our situation with the canon (66 books) falls well short of us saying “Ok, we acknowledge your authority to set and determine the canon. We don’t have any role here.” And once again, the Catholic/Orthodox church of the first millennium did not reach full consensus on the deuterocanon and neither side authoritatively set and determined a certain set of legalized books until after they split and even after the Reformation, whereas you appear to be implying that they did do something binding and authoritative in the first 5-10 centuries of Christianity that we acknowledge as being binding on us…which did not happen, as I’m sure you will affirm. Hey, it did feel good to say that again.

So, one more time, we have a different canon from you.

I thought that was worth pointing out.
 
***Actually my friend,

While I TRULY apprecite your post; MARY in an ABSOLUTE SENSE HAD TO BE [emphasis not shouting] free of ALL Si both before She Conceived Jesus and afterwards as well.

WHY?

Because God is; must be; and must always remin PERFECT in order to “be God”🙂

Simply put:

Because God Is Perfect Mary HAD to 1. Be perfected brior to her own conception and birth which i accomplised through the Merits of her Son, jesus [time does not exist for God]; then MARY HAD TO and DiD choose to remain sinless with God’s Grace an Her Own FREEWILL in order to merit [be worthy of] such a SINGULAR honor***.
As a FYI, I can address your other issues as well if your really interested?

God Bless you,
Pat/PJM

I get what you are trying to say, but please explain how Mary’s nature sinless or otherwise impacts God’s nature? My position is that it doesn’t and it can’t. God is incorruptible. Definitely interested in an explanation, beyond a simple statement saying that it has to be this way… not being flippant, but the logic is flawed.
 
No, brumano.

Our hosts, the Catholic Answers staff, completely disagree with your position regarding the “argument of necessity.” They state, “The reason we don’t use that argument is precisely that it’s not a good one.”

They go on to state:

"Don’t use the easily refutable argument of necessity; the argument of fittingness is much better. It was fitting that God willed that Mary was conceived free from all sin, since she was chosen to be the Ark of the New Covenant, the mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the incarnate Word of God. The Father didn’t have to do it that way, but it was fitting that he did. For a more detailed discussion of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception see Bishop Ullathorne, The Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God (Westminster, MD: Christian Classics, 1988 ed.) and Patrick Madrid, “Ark of the New Covenant” (This Rock, December 1991).

Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff
source: catholic.com/quickquestions/without-the-immaculate-conception-would-jesus-have-inherited-his-mothers-sinful-natur (bold mine)
That’s only part of the arguement of necessity, that Mary conceived in her heart by the Holy Spirit, that they would be saying is not a good one. We have to take stock of God in this, that what He does speaks for itself and transcends what we might think a better arguement. Of course Mary’s Immaculate being is fitting, there’s no arguement there, not from that post there wasn’t; but it is not only fitting, it is actual truth. What God chose to do with Mary becomes necessary and if not then we could not find it at all fitting either.
Of course The Father could have done this and everything an infinite number of different ways, but this is the one way that He did it. This is something that when you speak to protestants about Mary’s Immaculate Conception that you may have found is near impossible to get them to see, but it is nevertheless true. They may feel that it is just as “fitting” for Mary to have other children, afterall she was a married woman and there is no sin there. You see, if you limit something as sublime as the Immaculate Conception of Mary to the realm of what is only fitting, then it is a highly subjective and precarious realm you limit her and God into; what if another thinks it more fitting that Mary should be very sinful? It at this point that we must understand the insufficiency of the idea or some might well say, the notion, of this being true because it is only fitting.
This idea does not really fit the bill, when you put Mary who is Immaculate because it is just fitting that she is so, you have empty space around the outline when put into perspective with the other doctrines, the Assumption (it is necessary that all flesh must die, but once, but it is not only unfitting for Mary to die it is impossible that she die). But the massive reason of necessity is of course, Jesus.
 
Okay,but do you not acknowledge how you are picking and choosing? You just said, if the writings mentioned “veneration to Mary” you would place more attention to her-right? Again…where does anyone in the NT mention the canon of Scripture? Why do you not question it and/or ignore it all together? I have yet to meet one Protestant who questions the 27 NT canon (not mentioned in the Bible) like they do with Mary? Again…why?
I do question it, we all should. To blindly say that the Gospel of Matthew is inspired is illogical. Protestants and Catholics both do this but it’s the ones who dig deep can come to the logical conclusion that the 27 books in the NT are meant to be placed there. Many of the earliest Catholics named the 27 books as what they believed as the official NT canon but there was always dispute and there were always questions.

When the 27 books of the NT were put together by Protestant Churches they weren’t put together with the help of the Catholic Church, or vice versa. Even Luther wasn’t entirely sure about what to add and take out, but he came to the same conclusion as the CC at the council of trent.

Source: newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm
The issue here is not authority applied to scripture,but the fact the NT canon is no where mentioned or discusses in scripture. However, as a Protestant you accept the decision of the Catholic/Orthodox church which formulated and canonized the NT centuries after the Apostles. Historically speaking, it is a fact of church history and no amount of denials by anyone will make it go away.
See above. By the way, it’s been a pleasure talking to you so far. God bless.
Really? Then tell me why God created angels who are much more superior than humans to manifest to humans and instruct them about God? Do you really believe angels also cannot present our petitions before God?
I don’t know if they can the way that God can. If an Angel can be next to you, teaching you something and also be on the other side of the world teaching me something completely separate, and also able to know what every blade of grass on this Earth is doing and know how many Stars there are in the sky, while understanding the depth of our every thought as individuals I would assume such an Angel would be omnipotent. I don’t claim that God has called Angels to be omnipotent and I don’t claim that He hasn’t, I have no evidence of this.

But I’ll state again that what I do know is that Jesus Christ is omnipotent and we can put complete trust that He hears our prayers. This is a fact.
What on earth makes you believe Catholics (faithful ones) and the Catholic Church believes God’s Infinite love, power and knowledge is not enough?
I believe devout Catholics are as in line with their love for God, their faith in His Son and the Holy Spirit as devout Protestants are. That’s why I know that devout Catholics are apart of my Church, the one true Church that Jesus built. His Church.
 
Monergistic:
I’d like to point something out right quick…Protestants are extremely consistent in affirming the same 27 books of the NT canon, but we’re also awfully consistent in excluding the deuterocanon and maintaining that all that mess is apocryphal.
Indeed. From my studying the canon, the deuters were not excluded from the first Protestant bibles.
Do we really accept the decision of the Catholic/Orthodox church re:the canon? Really?
As far I can tell, you do with the 27 NT canon,but Protestants adhere to the 39 OT books. Rejection of the 7 deuters came much later and most Protestants today simply follow such a tradition. Fine with me…their choice,but I prefer the 46 OT canon.
Because we don’t have the same canon as either of you, and I don’t believe “the canon” was ever arrived at piecemeal, it was and always has been of a piece. Authoritatively and finally, officially set after the Schism and even after the Reformation, which is also well worth pointing out and I may even say that again because it sounds so nice, but in all the time that the canon was handled in some way, everything was taken together and not handled separately.
Yes the OT canon has been a hot piece to handle.
Now, there is something to explore with the NT books taken alone (27 books) and that whole thing, but our situation with the canon (66 books) falls well short of us saying “Ok, we acknowledge your authority to set and determine the canon. We don’t have any role here.”
Protestants rather to stick to the Jewish canon and again, it is their choice. I have no problems with them following such a tradition. I prefer to adhere to the larger canon and ancient Christian tradition.
And once again, the Catholic/Orthodox church of the first millennium did not reach full consensus on the deuterocanon and neither side authoritatively set and determined a certain set of legalized books until after they split and even after the Reformation, whereas you appear to be implying that they did do something binding and authoritative in the first 5-10 centuries of Christianity that we acknowledge as being binding on us…which did not happen, as I’m sure you will affirm. Hey, it did feel good to say that again.
So, one more time, we have a different canon from you.
You have a different canon because you choose to follow another adopted at a later date. I am not implying anything because it is a fact the canon was closed at a specific period in time. If it was not closed as so many contest, than why isn’t the 27 NT also included in the mix? Whether some rejected it or do not accept it is another issue. No different than doctrines being defined and closed, either people adhere to them or they don’t. Tons of Christians today deny the Trinity and other doctrines,but does not matter…it is a done deal.
I thought that was worth pointing out.
And worth mentioning.
 
That’s only part of the arguement of necessity, that Mary conceived in her heart by the Holy Spirit, that they would be saying is not a good one. We have to take stock of God in this, that what He does speaks for itself and transcends what we might think a better arguement. Of course Mary’s Immaculate being is fitting, there’s no arguement there, not from that post there wasn’t; but it is not only fitting, it is actual truth. What God chose to do with Mary becomes necessary and if not then we could not find it at all fitting either.
Of course The Father could have done this and everything an infinite number of different ways, but this is the one way that He did it. This is something that when you speak to protestants about Mary’s Immaculate Conception that you may have found is near impossible to get them to see, but it is nevertheless true. They may feel that it is just as “fitting” for Mary to have other children, afterall she was a married woman and there is no sin there. You see, if you limit something as sublime as the Immaculate Conception of Mary to the realm of what is only fitting, then it is a highly subjective and precarious realm you limit her and God into; what if another thinks it more fitting that Mary should be very sinful? It at this point that we must understand the insufficiency of the idea or some might well say, the notion, of this being true because it is only fitting.
This idea does not really fit the bill, when you put Mary who is Immaculate because it is just fitting that she is so, you have empty space around the outline when put into perspective with the other doctrines, the Assumption (it is necessary that all flesh must die, but once, but it is not only unfitting for Mary to die it is impossible that she die). But the massive reason of necessity is of course, Jesus.
Bru, most fitting is based on Gods Perfection and predestination. I hear what your saying though, the article while putting one in the right direction is no doubt brief.
 
dronald:
I do question it, we all should. To blindly say that the Gospel of Matthew is inspired is illogical. Protestants and Catholics both do this but it’s the ones who dig deep can come to the logical conclusion that the 27 books in the NT are meant to be placed there. Many of the earliest Catholics named the 27 books as what they believed as the official NT canon but there was always dispute and there were always questions.
**When the 27 books of the NT were put together by Protestant Churches **they weren’t put together with the help of the Catholic Church, or vice versa. Even Luther wasn’t entirely sure about what to add and take out, but he came to the same conclusion as the CC at the council of trent.
Indeed. Some of the books of the NT made cut at a later date. I am sorry,but I think you are confused about the canonization of the NT? No Protestant church existed at the time it was made final at the Council of Carthage (419) AD. The same closed canon of Carthage was declared at Trent, if that is what you mean?
See above. By the way, it’s been a pleasure talking to you so far. God bless.
Likewise. My pleasure to dialogue with you as well in charity and kindness.
dronald
I don’t know if they can the way that God can. If an Angel can be next to you, teaching you something and also be on the other side of the world teaching me something completely separate, and also able to know what every blade of grass on this Earth is doing and know how many Stars there are in the sky, while understanding the depth of our every thought as individuals I would assume such an Angel would be omnipotent. I don’t claim that God has called Angels to be omnipotent and I don’t claim that He hasn’t, I have no evidence of this.
But I’ll state again that what I do know is that Jesus Christ is omnipotent and we can put complete trust that He hears our prayers. This is a fact.
I’ll make it short. Angels can present our prayers or petitions as Raphael does in the Book of Tobit (Tb:12:12) to God. And no, ALL angels are spiritual creatures and have limits and are not omnipotent or omnipresent. ONLY God is Eternal and has no limitations.
dronald:
I believe devout Catholics are as in line with their love for God, their faith in His Son and the Holy Spirit as devout Protestants are. That’s why I know that devout Catholics are apart of my Church, the one true Church that Jesus built. His Church.
Likewise.
 
Indeed. Some of the books of the NT made cut at a later date. I am sorry,but I think you are confused about the canonization of the NT? No Protestant church existed at the time it was made final at the Council of Carthage (419) AD. The same closed canon of Carthage was declared at Trent, if that is what you mean?
Perhaps… I did not realize that such a council made it official for all of Catholicism as the Catholic encyclopedia says otherwise:

“St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries…For example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books. According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Chruch at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon. That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent”(The New Catholic Encyclopedia, McGraw Hill, Copyright 1967, Volume 3, “Canon, Biblical”, p. 29)

Maybe you’re right about this or maybe the Catholic Encyclopedia is. You can see why these matters can be confusing.
I’ll make it short. Angels can present our prayers or petitions as Raphael does in the Book of Tobit (Tb:12:12) to God. And no, ALL angels are spiritual creatures and have limits and are not omnipotent or omnipresent. ONLY God is Eternal and has no limitations.
Hm, according to Pope Gregory the great, this book should not be included as Canon, he lived and died after the council Carthage.

“With reference to which particular we are not acting irregularly, if from the books, though not Canonical, yet brought out for the edification of the Church, we bring forward testimony. Thus Eleazar in the battle smote and brought down an elephant, but fell under the very beast that he killed” (1 Macc. 6.46).
 
That’s only part of the arguement of necessity, that Mary conceived in her heart by the Holy Spirit, that they would be saying is not a good one. We have to take stock of God in this, that what He does speaks for itself and transcends what we might think a better arguement. Of course Mary’s Immaculate being is fitting, there’s no arguement there, not from that post there wasn’t; but it is not only fitting, it is actual truth. What God chose to do with Mary becomes necessary and if not then we could not find it at all fitting either.
Of course The Father could have done this and everything an infinite number of different ways, but this is the one way that He did it. This is something that when you speak to protestants about Mary’s Immaculate Conception that you may have found is near impossible to get them to see, but it is nevertheless true. They may feel that it is just as “fitting” for Mary to have other children, afterall she was a married woman and there is no sin there. You see, if you limit something as sublime as the Immaculate Conception of Mary to the realm of what is only fitting, then it is a highly subjective and precarious realm you limit her and God into; what if another thinks it more fitting that Mary should be very sinful? It at this point that we must understand the insufficiency of the idea or some might well say, the notion, of this being true because it is only fitting.
This idea does not really fit the bill, when you put Mary who is Immaculate because it is just fitting that she is so, you have empty space around the outline when put into perspective with the other doctrines, the Assumption (it is necessary that all flesh must die, but once, but it is not only unfitting for Mary to die it is impossible that she die). But the massive reason of necessity is of course, Jesus.
In Aquinas’ answer to the question “Whether it was necessary for the restoration of the human race that the Word of God should become incarnate,” he quotes St Augustine who uses the word fitting. The quote from St Augustine is this: “We shall also show that other ways were not wanting to God, to whose power all things are equally subject: but that there was not a more fitting way to heal our misery.” (Summa Theologica Part III, Q. 1, Art. 2)
 
dronald:
Perhaps… I did not realize that such a council made it official for all of Catholicism as the Catholic encyclopedia says otherwise:
“St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries…For example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books. According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Chruch at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon. That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent”(The New Catholic Encyclopedia, McGraw Hill, Copyright 1967, Volume 3, “Canon, Biblical”, p. 29)
Maybe you’re right about this or maybe the Catholic Encyclopedia is. You can see why these matters can be confusing.
Okay,but what you presented are questions,issues or doubts by the above folks presented before the final canonization. The canon was finalized at one point time. Does not matter, what one individual felt about certain books, it is not about individual opinions. Everything is done for the submission of the Church. Personal wills are set aside for the greater good: The church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
I’ll make it short. Angels can present our prayers or petitions as Raphael does in the Book of Tobit (Tb:12:12) to God. And no, ALL angels are spiritual creatures and have limits and are not omnipotent or omnipresent. ONLY God is Eternal and has no limitations.
dronald:
Hm, according to Pope Gregory the great, this book should not be included as Canon, he lived and died after the council Carthage.
“With reference to which particular we are not acting irregularly, if from the books, though not Canonical, yet brought out for the edification of the Church, we bring forward testimony. Thus Eleazar in the battle smote and brought down an elephant, but fell under the very beast that he killed” (1 Macc. 6.46).
Which book? Tobit or Maccabees?
 
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