Protestant View of Mariology

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Please understand that many Christians firmly believe they are historic Catholics. That everything up to the Reformation is the holy Church and everything after the Reformation is also the holy Church. We are all descendants of the early Church, the ecumenical creeds and the formation of the faith. There has always been disagreement from the earliest centuries AD. Orthodox do not entirely agree with Roman Catholics. Lutherans do not entirely agree with Orthodox. Anglicans differ with Lutherans [though there is very little difference] etc. ** Sorry friend, but what you articulate is in many way contrary to the actual positions of the Papacy and don’t alway reflect the Roman Catholic attitude toward other Christians**.
I beg your pardon? Factual events on matters of doctrinal development does not reflect the the papacy and Roman Catholic towards other Christians? We are discussing doctrinal matters here,not the mistreatment of others.
 
I don’t think Catholics should think that Protestants dislike Mary or something. We like her lots!

Well…can you show how you have shown how you like her?

Have you at least thanked her for bringing Jesus to the world?

And how have protestants shown or demonstrated how they like her? It is like questioning her perpetual virginity? saying she had other children? accusing her of being worshipped?
 
Yes, I’ve heard. So if I was to join the CC and rejected some of their practices would I feel uncomfortable?

There are practices that you do not have to do if you feel uncomfortable. There are some protestants who converted who felt the same as you…but eventually overcame their being uncomfortable once they saw the ancient roots of catholic practices.
 
I’d like to point something out right quick…Protestants are extremely consistent in affirming the same 27 books of the NT canon, but we’re also awfully consistent in excluding the deuterocanon and maintaining that all that mess is apocryphal.

Your protestant grandfathers also wanted to remove some NT books. But later changed their minds.

As for the protestant OT, both protestant and catholic bibles were generally the same till about 1820 or so. The exclusion of the DC books came about because of the desire to save money on printing costs, starting with the KJV:

forum.chnetwork.org/index.php/topic,11538.0.html

The deletion of the Deuterocanonical books in the King James Version (which originally included them) was not the work of any denominational authorities. Instead, it came about because the printers contracted to print copies of the Authorized Version were restricted in the amount they could charge for a Bible. The printers noted that Protestants generally, and the majority of Church of England adherents in particular, following the lead of Martin Luther and the Lutherans in Germany, did not seem to consider the Deuterocanonicals (which non-Catholics preferred to call Apocrypha, or “doubtful”) divinely inspired. They then proceeded to cut those pages out of the copies they printed, thereby reducing the amount of material and labor required and increasing their profit. Few complaints were registered, and the custom of leaving the “Apocryphal books” out of the King James Version was de facto established.

handsonapologetics.com/King_James_Bible.htm

Of the 227 printings of the Bible between 1632 and 1826, about 40% of Protestant Bibles contained the “Apocrypha.” The Apocrypha Controversy of the early 1800’s enabled English Bible Societies to flood the bible-buying market with Apocrypha-less Protestant Bibles and in 1885 the “Apocrypha” was officially removed with the advent of the Revised Standard Version, which replaced the King James Version.
It is hard to pin point the exact date where the King James Bible no longer contained the “Apocrypha.” It is clear that later editions of the KJV removed the “Apocrypha” appendix, but they continued to include cross-references to the “Apocrypha” until they too (like the Geneva Bible) were removed as well. Why were they removed? Was it do to over-crowded margins? The Anglican scholar William H. Daubney points out the obvious:
“These objectionable omissions [of the cross-references] were made after the custom arose of publishing Bibles without the Apocrypha. These apparently profess to be what they are not, entire copies of the Authorized Version … Plainly, the references to the Apocrypha told an inconvenient tale of the use which the Church intended should be made of it; so, either from dissenting influence without, or from prejudice within the Church, these references disappeared from the margin.” [The Use of the Apocrypha In the Christian Church (London: C. J. Clay and Sons, 1900), 17]
What was the inconvenient tale these cross-references told? They showed that the so-called Apocrypha actually plays a much greater role that most modern Protestants are willing to admit. Moreover, the cross-references showed that the church believed that knowledge of the so-called “Apocrypha” and their use in the New Testament benefited Christians who wished to understand the Bible. Sadly today, many Protestants use the King James Bible have been handed on to them in an unaltered and uncompromised form. The reality is that its contents had undergone several substantial changes beginning with Martin Luther’s gathering together the Deuterocanon and placing it in an “Apocrypha” appendix and later when that appendix (and its cross-references) were removed altogether from Protestant Bibles.
 
You can explain it to me. I’m a good listener and very interested in what you have to say. I think it would be great to have an independent method of determining just what is the word of God and what is not. So, how do you do that?

Thanks.
I’m really interested in this as well. But I believe it merits its own thread, and perhaps over by the Sacred Scriptures forums? Maybe?

It is definitely off-thread here thou :o
 
First- early Protestant Bibles did include a section labeled the Apocrypha, those books being lifted from their usual place in the Septuagint and placed between the old and new testaments. But yes, that is a good point, there was a period of transition where the Apocrypha (you’d call them Deuteros) was included, labeled the Apocrypha, and then universally dropped as far as I know. Little bit like how Greek Catholic Bibles used in Eastern Catholicism include portions that are apocryphal in the west but deutero in the east- and they are noted as apocryphal if they’re in a Catholic bible. Is that transitional? I don’t really know, but I do know such inclusion doesn’t reflect on the Catholic canon and Eastern Catholics can continue to print material labeled apocryphal if they want or drop it completely as they choose, it doesn’t make a big difference to anyone.

Second, Protestants adhere to Jewish tradition re:the OT and Catholic/Orthodox tradition re:the NT, which all forms one canon. As a Catholic, you are conditioned to assume that adherence to a certain tradition presupposes a certain kind of submission to a certain authority. That assumption does not necessarily play out, especially with Protestants and most clearly with the issue of the canon. What authority is this that we supposedly submit to- a Judeo-Catholic-Orthodox authority? A Jewish one by choice and a Catholic/Orthodox one by habit? That’s messy. The cleaner and more accurate explanation is that we adhere to certain traditions, but that does not mean we automatically live in full submission to whichever authority produced that tradition, nor does it mean we feel obligated to accept every single thing that Pharisees and bishops and every kind of priest has to say about themselves. Maybe Catholics are required to play by a certain set of rules, but Protestants for the most part aren’t required to, officially or unofficially. This is not as true of mainline denominations- but even then, submission to a specific authority isn’t necessarily regarded as a metric for unity.

And third, what do you mean by a closed canon and what is the specific period of time it was closed? And who gets to close it? I’m not entirely clear on the stated Catholic position with the closed canon part.

And finally, we as Protestants have stated beliefs re:authority. Our stated beliefs re:authority are the beliefs we have re:authority. It’s not uncommon for Catholics to respond to this idea with “But you have these 27 NT books,” and it’s only the occasional Catholic that goes all the way with something like “you have given tacit approval and faith in the authority of the Catholic Church to declare for you.” You haven’t quite done this, but please don’t. We have certain beliefs about authority. Understand them, even argue that a different set of beliefs is better and/or right. But if you know our stated beliefs and tell us that our stated beliefs aren’t our real beliefs, that is a bit of a fool’s errand. And I know you’re no fool.
I’'l make this short and sweet.

Christ founded His Church and gave it full authority. Who had the authority to define and declare all orthodox doctrines? The bishops of the church or the lay folks? I have yet to read the ancient church taking a vote from the faithful to decide doctrinal matters. Either Christ founded His church with authority or left a loose-knit church all deciding for themselves what is Truth or not?
 
I’m really interested in this as well. But I believe it merits its own thread, and perhaps over by the Sacred Scriptures forums? Maybe?

It is definitely off-thread here thou :o
Go for it. But as usual…it will go no where fast!
 
Do we really accept the decision of the Catholic/Orthodox church re:the canon? Really? Because we don’t have the same canon as either of you, and I don’t believe “the canon” was ever arrived at piecemeal, it was and always has been of a piece. Authoritatively and finally, officially set after the Schism and even after the Reformation, which is also well worth pointing out and I may even say that again because it sounds so nice, but in all the time that the canon was handled in some way, everything was taken together and not handled separately.

I thought that was worth pointing out.
The Bible or its canon is not a point of separation between the CC and the Orthodox. The Bible was not intended to be an authority nor replace the authority of the bishops.

The canon was settled on so as to have a consistent list of books to be read during the Mass.

The different OC canon of the OT stems from what “tradition” they received it from.

The Bible only became a source of conflice after the protestant reformation, when they threw out the authority of bishops. Without bishops, they themselves fragmented and there you see the development of the idea of the Bible as a source of authority.

And the canon was indeed arrived at piecemeal. It started with different bishops recommending a list of readings to be read during the mass.

The Epistle of Clement of Rome to corinth was one such writing considered as “scripture” and was in fact read at some churches for a time. But it was not included in the final canon starting with the council of rome in AD382.
 
The Bible or its canon is not a point of separation between the CC and the Orthodox. The Bible was not intended to be an authority nor replace the authority of the bishops.

The canon was settled on so as to have a consistent list of books to be read during the Mass.

The different OC canon of the OT stems from what “tradition” they received it from.

The Bible only became a source of conflice after the protestant reformation, when they threw out the authority of bishops. Without bishops, they themselves fragmented and there you see the development of the idea of the Bible as a source of authority.

And the canon was indeed arrived at piecemeal. It started with different bishops recommending a list of readings to be read during the mass.

The Epistle of Clement of Rome to corinth was one such writing considered as “scripture” and was in fact read at some churches for a time. But it was not included in the final canon starting with the council of rome in AD382.
It has been sometime since I studied the canon in depth,but if I remember, I do not recall the canon being such a source of tension in the church,until the Reformers?
 
Go for it. But as usual…it will go no where fast!
Hmmm… to Monergistic’s credit, he/she did concede to some historical facts and did provide one of the most coherent responses about the canon I’ve read from our separated brethren in a long time.
 
Bru, most fitting is based on Gods Perfection and predestination. I hear what your saying though, the article while putting one in the right direction is no doubt brief.
Not to belabor this, what i think i hear you saying is that most fitting in it’s fullest implications abounds to… necessarily true? Additionally, I think you’ll find that much more agreeable with the scriptural Mary, co redemptress, co mediatrix and the toughest one, imho, to defend, which I see you have an affinity to: The Queen of Heaven. thnks.
 
Hmmm… to Monergistic’s credit, he/she did concede to some historical facts and did provide one of the most coherent responses about the canon I’ve read from our separated brethren in a long time.
Yes…I agree.
 
Not to belabor this, what i think i hear you saying is that most fitting in it’s fullest implications abounds to… necessarily true? Additionally, I think you’ll find that much more agreeable with the scriptural Mary, co redemptress, co mediatrix and the toughest one, imho, to defend, which I see you have an affinity to: The Queen of Heaven. thnks.
I don’t disagree with you. In fact from reading the CAF link its apparent to me I use both, not that I placed much thought in the necessary aspect. 😛

For example if we say Jesus had to be born in other than the consequence of His own judgement, then we would say Mary had to be free from this at some point also.

Here let me show a link so I don’t fabulously destroy the Saints thinking. 😃

absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/duns-scotus/
 
Yes, I’ve heard. So if I was to join the CC and rejected some of their practices would I feel uncomfortable?
You would need to give religious assent to all the doctrines/teachings.

You could never pray the rosary and be a perfectly good, orthodox Catholic.

However, I suppose a good analogy would be: you could be a perfectly good husband and never ever once speak to your wife’s mother. But somehow it just doesn’t seem right, does it?
 
From what I’ve read, that’s not the intention of this specific Church. If they are teaching hate, it’s up to us as Protestants and Catholics to refute such hate.
So let’s say there’s a storefront church (any storefront church) that teaches this: Paul was a false apostle

yet also proclaims that Jesus is Lord and Savior, and this church has brought some folks to come to know and love Jesus…

you’d be okay with this church continuing its preaching?
 
That’s only part of the arguement of necessity, that Mary conceived in her heart by the Holy Spirit, that they would be saying is not a good one.
I am not following you here. What do you mean by Mary “conceived in her heart by the Holy Spirit”?
but it is not only fitting, it is actual truth.
Of course.
What God chose to do with Mary becomes necessary and if not then we could not find it at all fitting either.
Again, if you argue that it was necessary, it prompts the question: then why did God not deem it necessary to make St. Ann and St. Joachim immaculately conceived as well?
They may feel that it is just as “fitting” for Mary to have other children, afterall she was a married woman and there is no sin there.
It’s actually NOT fitting that Mary would have other children. Just as it would be NOT fitting for the Ark of the Covenant, which carried the Word of God, to also carry some pretty desert pebbles.
You see, if you limit something as sublime as the Immaculate Conception of Mary to the realm of what is only fitting, then it is a highly subjective and precarious realm you limit her and God into; what if another thinks it more fitting that Mary should be very sinful? It at this point that we must understand the insufficiency of the idea or some might well say, the notion, of this being true because it is only fitting.
No one has argued that the IC is true “because it is only fitting.”

It is true because it’s what happened.

However, it’s misguided to argue that it was NECESSARY for Mary to be immaculately conceived. Rather, it was FITTING that she was immaculate, to hold the Divine Word Made Flesh.
This idea does not really fit the bill, when you put Mary who is Immaculate because it is just fitting that she is so, you have empty space around the outline when put into perspective with the other doctrines, the Assumption (it is necessary that all flesh must die, but once, but it is not only unfitting for Mary to die it is impossible that she die).
You do know that it is NOT Catholic teaching that Mary did not die. That she was assumed into heaven is dogma. But whether she died first or not is open to speculation.
 
Well, anyway PR I remember this “most fitting” conversation from a couple years ago. And I’ll be forever grateful for your re-direct. Came to mind immediately here. No desert pebbles. 🙂

I think the light went on around the St. Ann and St. Joachim aspect. 😃
 
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