Protestant View of Mariology

[aidanbradypop]

Oh yay! I didn’t know we’d wind up on the topic of Solus Christus.

Hmmm

 

[Monergistic]

Blessings Monergistic! Quick question for you? Is it okay, if I ask what Christian community you belong to? And no…I am not going to attack your Christian community,only a simple question.

Thanks

I don’t have a particular denomination, but I try to be at home in a pretty good variety of places. Most non-denom churches, Baptist, Free, Reformed, Presbyterian, I can do some of the Pentecostal stuff, a little of the broad-church Anglican too. I’m close with some people who are Wesleyan and Methodist, but I haven’t been personally involved in that as much.

Way I look at it, everyone can go to their corners and try to convert Christianity to their corner- fail, of course- and call it an attempt at unity, or we can try to engage each other as much as we can.

CS Lewis had an illustration in Mere Christianity about a hallway with various doors where people could walk around, walk in somewhere, and settle down. I’m in the hallway. Lewis did highly recommend that people find a room, sit down, and really be at home somewhere, and I’m sure I will do that at some point. But I am a strong supporter of an open-door policy, and the idea of adjoining rooms is very attractive to me as well.

 

[Monergistic]

Hmmm

It was joke. I made a funny.

 

[GaryTaylor]

But I am a strong supporter of an open-door policy, and the idea of adjoining rooms is very attractive to me as well.

Evangelical, ecumenical, outside in the hallway with adjoining rooms. Descriptive and honest.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree with your analogies, PR.

:curtsey:

I think Protestants who have been exposed to alot of anti-Catholicism, but are being drawn by the Holy Spirit into communion with the universal Church need to have faith that in time all will fall into place.

Attending to Mass, following the liturgical year, growing in Eucharistic spirituality, and studying the classics on the walk in perfection/union with God, that so much will fall into place.

The Eucharist brings us into acknowledging deeper and deeper the depravity of sin and how even one sin can warp our being that transcends into even the universe. The study of perfection, be it St. Catherine of Siena or Theresa of Avila, or John of the Cross or S. Bonaventura, do great work in helping us see who Christ is and who we are not.

Being a Latin Catholic, we have full communion with the successor of Peter. The more we enter into the universal Church, the mysteries of Mary we cannot understand today will be revealed tomorrow.

 

[PRmerger]

None taken be assured; how about, fitting for you, necessary for me? hasta la vista!

If you say that it was necessary for Mary to be immaculate in order to be the vessel which held the Word Made Flesh,

how will you answer this question:

then why wasn’t it necessary for Mary’s mother, St. Ann, to also be immaculate in order to hold something immaculate?

 

[steido01]

then why wasn’t it necessary for Mary’s mother, St. Ann, to also be immaculate in order to hold something immaculate?

Clearly, it follows that all women must therefore be sinless, pristine creatures! My wife is training me well, eh?

 

[PRmerger]

Clearly, it follows that all women must therefore be sinless, pristine creatures! My wife is training me well, eh?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Are you talking about Axion Estin?

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.

Yes, I believe it was the Axion Estin but not the Byzantine version; it was sung plainchant.
Here’s the wonderful praise to our most holy Mother:
orthodoxcircle.com/video/663/axion-estin-it-is-truly-meet-plagal-of-1st-tone/

 

[Porknpie]

I agree with your analogies, PR.

I think Protestants who have been exposed to alot of anti-Catholicism, but are being drawn by the Holy Spirit into communion with the universal Church need to have faith that in time all will fall into place.

Attending to Mass, following the liturgical year, growing in Eucharistic spirituality, and studying the classics on the walk in perfection/union with God, that so much will fall into place.

The Eucharist brings us into acknowledging deeper and deeper the depravity of sin and how even one sin can warp our being that transcends into even the universe. The study of perfection, be it St. Catherine of Siena or Theresa of Avila, or John of the Cross or S. Bonaventura, do great work in helping us see who Christ is and who we are not.

Being a Latin Catholic, we have full communion with the successor of Peter. The more we enter into the universal Church, the mysteries of Mary we cannot understand today will be revealed tomorrow.

:flowers::flowers::flowers::flowers:

 

[Porknpie]

No it does not. Mariology separates Mary from Christ, which is why people today are prone to worshiping her as a goddess rather than seeing her true place in our Christian lives and in the Kingdom of God.

Interesting article on Mariology here from the viewpoint of the early Church Fathers. It does not hold that Mariology separates Mary from Christ.

And I have yet in fifty years of life met anyone who worships Mary as a goddess. Every
Catholic that I have ever known understands that Mary points us to her Son.

“Do what he tells you”

Pork

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I agree with your analogies, PR.

I think Protestants who have been exposed to alot of anti-Catholicism, but are being drawn by the Holy Spirit into communion with the universal Church need to have faith that in time all will fall into place.

Attending to Mass, following the liturgical year, growing in Eucharistic spirituality, and studying the classics on the walk in perfection/union with God, that so much will fall into place.

The Eucharist brings us into acknowledging deeper and deeper the depravity of sin and how even one sin can warp our being that transcends into even the universe. The study of perfection, be it St. Catherine of Siena or Theresa of Avila, or John of the Cross or S. Bonaventura, do great work in helping us see who Christ is and who we are not.

Being a Latin Catholic, we have full communion with the successor of Peter. The more we enter into the universal Church, the mysteries of Mary we cannot understand today will be revealed tomorrow.

I also agree with others that your expression of faith is wonderful and inspiring. Wish we had more people like you in the Lutheran Church. Some Lutherans are shocked to see an icon to the blessed Virgin in a Lutheran church. America has been heavily influenced by what I refer to as “Bible-Belt” Protestantism.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Let us look at 3 great examples for conversation.

The Immaculate Conception of Mary: This was done for Christ and not Mary. So it is actually not about Mary but for about Christ. He is the reason there was such a need for the IC!

But the IC was about Mary, not about Christ. Why do you say that He is the reason for such a need?

Ever Virgin: You should have no issue with that since you are Orthodox.

Depends what you mean. Because our understanding of ever virginity again is in the context of Christ, not of Mary. If you expound on your understanding on this I will clarify where our understanding and approach differs.

Assumption: Once again as an Orthodox, you should find no fault in this dogma

There is, from the Catholic understanding (or should I say misunderstanding).

Which of the 4 do you find issue with? Mother of God? You cannot deny that and believe in the Holy Trinity.

As explained earlier, “Theotokos” is a Christological statement, not a Mariological.

 

[KathleenGee]

EvangelCatholic,

I like your name here because it reveals to me that you are seeking the true Gospel that is intended to be revealed to all people.

An addition to the presence of Mary in the Church is that she reveals the feminine side of God.

Mary is the Mother who makes us a family. Actually, the deeper you go into Catholicism, you begin to see yourself as a speck of sand, but then we all are, and we are all part and present to the Living Waters of Jesus. You can study Catholicism forever. It grows and grows, not in self-knowledge, but that which brings you into the living Lord, His Mystical Body, and how all human beings, whether they realize it or not, fulfill His Will.

The closer we grow to Jesus, the more He is.

Thank you for your response to my post.

 

[PRmerger]

But the IC was about Mary, not about Christ. Why do you say that He is the reason for such a need?

The IC only serves to enhance, highlight and nourish the arguments for the Divinity of Christ.

If Jesus is not divine, why does he need a perfect vessel to hold him?

How would you answer the Jew who asks a Christian who denies the IC: how in the world could your “savior” be divine when he was kept for 9 months in an impure, dirty, sinful vessel? I should think that a Divine Being would be worthy of a more honored vessel.

Jews didn’t keep their Torah in something dirty.

The IC provides great apologia for the Incarnation.

 

[joe371]

The IC only serves to enhance, highlight and nourish the arguments for the Divinity of Christ.

If Jesus is not divine, why does he need a perfect vessel to hold him?

How would you answer the Jew who asks a Christian who denies the IC: how in the world could your “savior” be divine when he was kept for 9 months in an impure, dirty, sinful vessel? I should think that a Divine Being would be worthy of a more honored vessel.

Jews didn’t keep their Torah in something dirty.

The IC provides great apologia for the Incarnation.

 

[dronald]

The IC only serves to enhance, highlight and nourish the arguments for the Divinity of Christ.

If Jesus is not divine, why does he need a perfect vessel to hold him?

How would you answer the Jew who asks a Christian who denies the IC: how in the world could your “savior” be divine when he was kept for 9 months in an impure, dirty, sinful vessel? I should think that a Divine Being would be worthy of a more honored vessel.

Jews didn’t keep their Torah in something dirty.

The IC provides great apologia for the Incarnation.

This argument works if Jesus had two biological parents, however it can simply be dismissed knowing that Jesus was not born by natural causes at all. Jesus was fully divine (birth through the spirit) and fully human (birth through a woman.)

A Jew would also think that a Divine Being would be worthy of a much more honoured death. However, our saviour was nailed to a cross wasn’t He… Thus, the Jews reject Him.

 

[joe371]

This argument works if Jesus had two biological parents, however it can simply be dismissed knowing that Jesus was not born by natural causes at all. Jesus was fully divine (birth through the spirit) and fully human (birth through a woman.)

A Jew would also think that a Divine Being would be worthy of a much more honoured death. However, our saviour was nailed to a cross wasn’t He… Thus, the Jews reject Him.

So, it was critical for Jesus to be born of the holy spirit aka God, (fully God) but not important that Jesus be born of a sinless mother (fully human)? Hmm…Sure, God can do anything. The question is: would God allow himself to become one with sinful flesh, in the most intimate manner - mother and child? Your protestant tradition says yes, as did my former protestant tradition i.e. interpretation of scripture. The only way to know for sure is to defer to Jesus’ church as opposed to your interpretation and my interpretation. There is no way I can know, on my own, with certainty, one way or the other. Would you say the same…?

 

[GaryTaylor]

It comes back to the “need” which PR is speaking about. Perhaps to see Gods perfect predestination in the early stage would help.

“When God undertook in the beginning to create the world, for nothing comes to mind without cause, each that would ever exist was presented to His mind. He saw what else would result when such a thing were produced; and if such a result were accomplished, what else would accompany: and what else would be the result even of this when it would come about. And so on to the conclusion of the sequence of events…He knew what would be, without being altogether of the cause of the coming to be of each of the things which He knew would happen.” Origen on Genesis

Origen provides a loose quick overview which is contemplated and elaborated on for hundreds of years before the Absolute Primacy of Jesus Christ is given. However, as you see another way, there is no extrinsic cause which affected Gods perfect plan.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Also the hypostatic union doesn’t divide the human and divine nature, we do this to understand only.