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aidanbradypop
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Did you click the link I posted about 12 things to know before you go to an orthodox church?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
What of it? I go to an Orthodox Church so I know what I need to know when I go to an Orthodox parish
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aidanbradypop
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It talks about the kissing statues. etc etc…We are getting off topic lol. I will PM you if that is okWhat of it? I go to an Orthodox Church so I know what I need to know when I go to an Orthodox parish
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Porknpie
Guest
Constantine,
How does one understand what is going on here? Is this proper veneration? It looks like worship to me. Where’s the Orthodox “line”? Catholic’s kiss neither Marian artwork nor statues.
Catholic’s only kiss the foot of the cross during lent.
Source is here
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ConstantineTG
Guest
It is not about just the kissing. Read my earlier post, I think you guys are looking at the wrong thing that we are criticizing. The biggies are the Marian dogmas (which the Orthodox will never have), the apparitions which put Mary as the hope of humanity over Christ. While we do say in the Orthodox Church that Mary is our hope, it is not in that context. We don’t pray the Rosary so that she can hold back Christ from destroying sinners.Constantine,
How does one understand what is going on here? Is this proper veneration? It looks like worship to me. Where’s the Orthodox “line”? Catholic’s kiss neither Marian artwork nor statues.
Catholic’s only kiss the foot of the cross during lent.
Source is here
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Monergistic
Guest
There is a long standing tradition in Judaism- Orthodox Judaism especially- of kissing the Torah, not as a religious obligation but it is common practice. I doubt anyone would suggest that they have been worshiping the Torah all this time.Constantine,
How does one understand what is going on here? Is this proper veneration? It looks like worship to me. Where’s the Orthodox “line”? Catholic’s kiss neither Marian artwork nor statues.
Catholic’s only kiss the foot of the cross during lent.
Source is here
www.vosizneias.com/38665/2009/09/20/brookline-ma-h1n1-prompts-modifying-kissing-of-the-torah/
There were things in this little blurb that made me smile.
Personally, the main thing that keeps me from kissing things is germ-consciousness. But to me, if you kiss something it doesn’t indicate worship, it just means you really like it.
For real though, it means you care about something, it’s important to you, and it would be reasonably accurate to call it a public display of affection which is endowed with exactly the same amount of worshipfulness as any other form of PDA. The difference is you’re sharing germs with a lot more people this way.Now, if you start talking to the thing you just kissed- that’s a different thing, and a lot of that depends on what you’re saying.
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PRmerger
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I know, right? You could view it as hilarious that there is no central authority in the Orthodox churches.
Or, another way to look at it is that it’s quite sad and ludicrous.
I recently learned that some Orthodox churches now will marry someone who’s already married to someone else, but divorced. Hilarious.
Or, sad.
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EvangelCatholic
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That is what Lutherans also do on Good FridayConstantine,
How does one understand what is going on here? Is this proper veneration? It looks like worship to me. Where’s the Orthodox “line”? Catholic’s kiss neither Marian artwork nor statues.
Catholic’s only kiss the foot of the cross during lent.
Source is here
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PRmerger
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Egg-zactly.
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Porknpie
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Sorry Constantine, not to be uncharitable but that is complete non-sense…not at all. Mary points us to her son…saying “do whatever he asks of you”. Please cite a Catholic source as your proof.
Neither do Catholics…we pray the rosary meditating on the life of Jesus.
catholic.com/tracts/the-rosary
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Robert_in_SD
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As a FYI, I can address your other issues as well if your really interested?***Actually my friend,
While I TRULY apprecite your post; MARY in an ABSOLUTE SENSE HAD TO BE [emphasis not shouting] free of ALL Si both before She Conceived Jesus and afterwards as well.
WHY?
Because God is; must be; and must always remin PERFECT in order to “be God”
Simply put:
Because God Is Perfect Mary HAD to 1. Be perfected brior to her own conception and birth which i accomplised through the Merits of her Son, jesus [time does not exist for God]; then MARY HAD TO and DiD choose to remain sinless with God’s Grace an Her Own FREEWILL in order to merit [be worthy of] such a SINGULAR honor***.
God Bless you,
Pat/PJMThis is not what the Church teaches. The Church teaches it was absolutely fitting and proper for Mary to be immaculately conceived (saved at the moment of her creation), but it was not strictly speaking “necessary” that she be so. If the contrary were true, then it would have been necessary for Mary’s parents to be sinless, and their parents as well, etcetera. That is not Church teaching. Mary’s immaculate conception was the result of a singular act of grace, but it was not a necessary factor for the Incarnation to take place, and for Christ to enter the world without sin. He could have chosen any way He wanted to enter the world.
I believe I am right on this, but if I am mistaken, please correct me with a citation to authority.
Peace,
Robert
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pablope
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PRmerger
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Yep! Join the club of us who are trying to convince Catholics how to argue correctly for the IC.
It is not good argument to say “The IC was necessary”.
It is good argument to say, “The IC was fitting.”
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Michael57
Guest
To the OP:
Before I became Catholic, I gave very little thought to the place of Mary. She was just another person in the story of Jesus, and not very important at that.
I read but did not understand the scriptures in the Apocalypse of John, Revelations, as referring to Mary in any way. Likewise, I failed to understand the Gospels. I didn’t have the right perspective, but there was enough that I understood that the protestant path that I was on was not the right one for me.
After I started attending RCIA, I began to be troubled by Marian doctrine, so I looked at what the Church taught and stated. That was really something!
It was very eye-opening, and now I fully believe the Church Doctrine on Mary, Mother of God.
Before I became Catholic, I gave very little thought to the place of Mary. She was just another person in the story of Jesus, and not very important at that.
I read but did not understand the scriptures in the Apocalypse of John, Revelations, as referring to Mary in any way. Likewise, I failed to understand the Gospels. I didn’t have the right perspective, but there was enough that I understood that the protestant path that I was on was not the right one for me.
After I started attending RCIA, I began to be troubled by Marian doctrine, so I looked at what the Church taught and stated. That was really something!
It was very eye-opening, and now I fully believe the Church Doctrine on Mary, Mother of God.
Hi Robert,
Haven’t “seen” you in a while. Hope you are well.
Could this singular act of grace have occurred at the visitation? If so, how do we know for sure when it happened? And, does it really matter which we believe?
Jon
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PRmerger
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It could have occurred. But we know it didn’t. And we know for sure because the same Church that tells us the visitation occurred (in Luke 1) tells us that the IC is God’s revelation.
If she is wrong about the IC, then how do you have any assurance that she isn’t wrong about Luke 1 being* theopneustos*?
And it does really matter that we believe it–because God has willed that we know this to be a truth of the faith.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I have been out, Constantine…but have been trying to get back to the post 685.
Some how, responses are coming out with different perceptions that are not in my comments or that of the Immaculate Conception.
To imply that Christ would be less perfect…if He were not born of the Immaculate Conception…is invalidating His eternal divinity. So you are making inferences in this that are not based on solid theology of Who Christ is and His Divine and Human nature.
It is likewise not absurd to say that Mary is the highest of all creation. She is. Woman is the last of God’s creation. And Mary was full of grace, blessed before all women, so she is on a plane that is higher than all women who ever lived and will live. Otherwise, you are inferring she is less than she truly is: the Mother of God.
That Mary is the Mother of God would definitely imply there is something different about her that is not found in other women.
About calling it Calvinism, Mary bridge between creation and Christ…without her Fiat, all of creation would not be redeemed in Christ. Calvinism seems to have a rather condemning view of humanity, and God created all of us good.
Calvinism cannot see God or experience God outside its own interpretation of text of Scripture. It is not Ecclesial Deism, where God chose Peter to head His Church, not the Bible open to interpretation.
That Latin Church is logical. The Eastern Church is mystical. Both are needed. Both can learn from each other. And as was stated before, the Church does not jump in and proclaim dogmas here and there, come willy nilly.
It took the Church close to almost 2,000 years to declare the Immaculate Conception, and this latter part debated among theologians for 500 years with much heart felt probing and study.
Some how, responses are coming out with different perceptions that are not in my comments or that of the Immaculate Conception.
To imply that Christ would be less perfect…if He were not born of the Immaculate Conception…is invalidating His eternal divinity. So you are making inferences in this that are not based on solid theology of Who Christ is and His Divine and Human nature.
It is likewise not absurd to say that Mary is the highest of all creation. She is. Woman is the last of God’s creation. And Mary was full of grace, blessed before all women, so she is on a plane that is higher than all women who ever lived and will live. Otherwise, you are inferring she is less than she truly is: the Mother of God.
That Mary is the Mother of God would definitely imply there is something different about her that is not found in other women.
About calling it Calvinism, Mary bridge between creation and Christ…without her Fiat, all of creation would not be redeemed in Christ. Calvinism seems to have a rather condemning view of humanity, and God created all of us good.
Calvinism cannot see God or experience God outside its own interpretation of text of Scripture. It is not Ecclesial Deism, where God chose Peter to head His Church, not the Bible open to interpretation.
That Latin Church is logical. The Eastern Church is mystical. Both are needed. Both can learn from each other. And as was stated before, the Church does not jump in and proclaim dogmas here and there, come willy nilly.
It took the Church close to almost 2,000 years to declare the Immaculate Conception, and this latter part debated among theologians for 500 years with much heart felt probing and study.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Am I to take this we are in agreement this singular this act of grace did occur at “some” point?
That would be called progress. This follows with Mary was subject to the fall yet how subjected being Full of Grace [assuming this point was made] in relation to death of the flesh. death of the soul, and if that is not enough it must coincide with the 4th Council the nature of Christ, and also the verse “all have sinned” latter elaborated on at the Second Council of Orange.I’m with you Jon.
I would say it matters for the sake of continuity in thinking which leads to unity, proper formation with Mary, regardless which we ultimately deem the most fitting.
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Robert_in_SD
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Hi Jon. Good to hear from you. In answer to your question, I *suppose *it *could *have happened at the visitation. But I can know that it did not, as A Catholic, because of the teaching of the Church that settled the matter here.
The linked document sets forth the many reasons why it was altogether fitting that Mary’s conception be an immaculate one.
Peace,
Robert
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joe371
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Why do you call the Catholic Church the Roman Church? Why not call it the Catholic Church? I am surprised to hear you say the following: “Roman Church has either tip-toed the line of fully crossed it between veneration and worship.”
Completely false!!!
I thought you had a better grasp of catholic doctrine…
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