Protestant View of Mariology

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PRmerger said:
You are taking too literal an understanding of “conceived”.

It does not have to mean: the joining of sperm and egg.
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But that is what “conceived” means. Try a dictionary, its useful. Mary’s Immaculate Conception specifically has to do with St. Joachim’s sperm meeting St. Anne’s egg.
PRmerger said:
It can simply mean: the beginning or inception.

And, A & E were indeed conceived immaculately.

Ok. Non-sequitur, but ok. 🤷
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No, Adam and Eve were not conceived immaculately. And even if I would, for the sake of argument, agree with your point, this still doesn’t answer Mary being a break in humanity. When Adam and Eve were “conceived” (they were not, they were created, anyway) all humanity was is what they are. There were no fallen humans. When Adam and Eve fell, all humanity, including those who are yet to be born, have fallen with them. So for one to be conceived in the state of Adam and Eve before the fall at the state of humanity after the fall is a break in humanity.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Try to work with me to what? To accept a potentially heretic concept? I don’t think there is an explanation out there that can force me (and those I learned this from) to accept the Holy Spirit as spouse of Mary.
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Initially, I tried to illustrate, using logic, the unique relationship that Mary the mother of God, had (and continues to have) with the holy Trinity, which is unlike any relationship anyone else has ever had, with the holy Trinity. You then said the CC, based on the teachings of your Orthodox aka Catholic church, is wrong to use the word spouse when attempting to explain the following verse, adducing the following reason: by calling Mary the spouse is to assume something carnal happened between Mary and the Holy Spirit. Do you really believe that this is what the CC teaches? Or do you agree that the CC, by using the word spouse, is simply talking about a mystical union between Mary, the mother of God and the Holy Spirit? Joseph was Mary’s spouse and they did not have carnal relations, so you see it is possible to be someone’s spouse without bringing carnal stuff up - right?

for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Read this here:

ortodoks.dk/ortodoks-tro-og-praksis/de-hellige/the-orthodox-veneration-of-mary-the-birthgiver-of-god

Scroll down to the section called Zeal Not According to Knowledge (Romans 10:2). This outlines the Orthodox objection to Roman Catholic Mariology as written by one of the most notable modern saints in Orthodoxy, St. John Maximovitch. It’s a long read, I tried posting that section here and it is nearly 30,000 characters long.
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Important question: Do you admit that the CC nowhere endorses Marian worship in their documents e.g. the catechism etc., i.e. the CC views Marian worship as idolatry, and strongly condemns Marian worship for the simple reason that Mary is a mere creature as opposed to being the creator?
 
joe371 said:
Important question: Do you admit that the CC nowhere endorses Marian worship in their documents e.g. the catechism etc., i.e. the CC views Marian worship as idolatry, and strongly condemns Marian worship for the simple reason that Mary is a mere creature as opposed to being the creator?
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Remember the parable of the two sons where one of the sons says he won’t do it but did it anyway? That is the case here. I fear though that this is not out of ill intent, but that the RCC has not realized that it has dangerously tiptoed the line and led others to cross it.
 
joe371 said:
Initially, I tried to illustrate, using logic, the unique relationship that Mary the mother of God, had (and continues to have) with the holy Trinity, which is unlike any relationship anyone else has ever had, with the holy Trinity. You then said the CC, based on the teachings of your Orthodox aka Catholic church, is wrong to use the word spouse when attempting to explain the following verse, adducing the following reason: by calling Mary the spouse is to assume something carnal happened between Mary and the Holy Spirit. Do you really believe that this is what the CC teaches? Or do you agree that the CC, by using the word spouse, is simply talking about a mystical union between Mary, the mother of God and the Holy Spirit? Joseph was Mary’s spouse and they did not have carnal relations, so you see it is possible to be someone’s spouse without bringing carnal stuff up - right?

for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
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The act of the Holy Spirit conceiving Jesus in the womb of Mary is miraculous, not spousal.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Remember the parable of the two sons where one of the sons says he won’t do it but did it anyway? That is the case here. I fear though that this is not out of ill intent, but that the RCC has not realized that it has dangerously tiptoed the line and led others to cross it.
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OK, but you did not answer the question. Regarding the CCs official teachings (public revelation handed down via the centuries, do you admit that the CC nowhere endorses Marian worship in their documents e.g. the catechism etc.,. In other words, the CC views Marian worship as idolatry, and strongly condemns Marian worship for the simple reason that Mary is a mere creature as opposed to being the creator? Yes or no?🙂
 
ConstantineTG said:
The act of the Holy Spirit conceiving Jesus in the womb of Mary is miraculous, not spousal.
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You did not answer the two questions: Calling Mary the spouse is to assume something carnal happened between Mary and the Holy Spirit. OK. Do you believe that this is what the CC teaches? Or do you agree that the CC, by using the word spouse, is simply talking about a miracle and mystical union between Mary, the mother of God and the Holy Spirit?

To be someones spouse always means carnal relations, as you stated. OK. Joseph was Mary’s spouse and they did not have carnal relations, so you see it is possible to be someone’s spouse without bringing carnal stuff up - right?
 
joe371 said:
OK, but you did not answer the question. Regarding the CCs official teachings (public revelation handed down via the centuries, do you admit that the CC nowhere endorses Marian worship in their documents e.g. the catechism etc.,. In other words, the CC views Marian worship as idolatry, and strongly condemns Marian worship for the simple reason that Mary is a mere creature as opposed to being the creator? Yes or no?🙂
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Joe, sadly the answer to your question cannot be a simple yes or no. Look, there are many people today who say, “the only way to be saved is to pray the Rosary.” That is one example. Sure, the RCC does not teach that per se, but where do you think these people got that idea from? The praxis in the RCC has become dangerous in this regard. Teaching has many facets to it, not just direct words. Praxis play an important part in teaching. It is the praxis that is leading people dangerously close to crossing that line, even crossing it. I learned more about the importance of this when I become Orthodox. Because in Orthodoxy we do not believe we can just conquer something with logic, experience is much stronger. So every action we do in Liturgy, for example, is deliberate to carry a symbolism. And this symbolism is thought out and debated and tested. This is because we know and understand that even the tiniest of actions affect the belief of people. If we do something a certain way even though we say something else, we know that there should not be any contradiction to what we say and what we do. The problem is that the RCC does not say that they worship Mary, but you see Mary being more central than Jesus in the praxis of the RCC does bring people into Marian worship.
 
joe371 said:
You did not answer the two questions: Calling Mary the spouse is to assume something carnal happened between Mary and the Holy Spirit. OK. Do you believe that this is what the CC teaches? Or do you agree that the CC, by using the word spouse, is simply talking about a miracle and mystical union between Mary, the mother of God and the Holy Spirit?

To be someones spouse always means carnal relations, as you stated. OK. Joseph was Mary’s spouse and they did not have carnal relations, so you see it is possible to be someone’s spouse without bringing carnal stuff up - right?
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Okay, let’s back track and keep it simple this time.

Why is Mary called the spouse of the Holy Spirit?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Joe, sadly the answer to your question cannot be a simple yes or no. Look, there are many people today who say, “the only way to be saved is to pray the Rosary.” That is one example. Sure, the RCC does not teach that per se, but where do you think these people got that idea from? The praxis in the RCC has become dangerous in this regard. Teaching has many facets to it, not just direct words. Praxis play an important part in teaching. It is the praxis that is leading people dangerously close to crossing that line, even crossing it. I learned more about the importance of this when I become Orthodox. Because in Orthodoxy we do not believe we can just conquer something with logic, experience is much stronger. So every action we do in Liturgy, for example, is deliberate to carry a symbolism. And this symbolism is thought out and debated and tested. This is because we know and understand that even the tiniest of actions affect the belief of people. If we do something a certain way even though we say something else, we know that there should not be any contradiction to what we say and what we do. The problem is that the RCC does not say that they worship Mary, but you see Mary being more central than Jesus in the praxis of the RCC does bring people into Marian worship.
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Either the CC leaders teach and endorse Marian idolatry or they don’t? :)Just a simple answer.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Okay, let’s back track and keep it simple this time.

Why is Mary called the spouse of the Holy Spirit?
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Sadly, I don’t think we will ever agree. Why: “for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” However, the word spouse only has one definition for you, it seems, and for some reason it must involve sexual relations. Joseph was a literal (as opposed to mystical) spouse of Mary. Nothing carnal about that relationship.
 
ConstantineTG said:
But I just said the answer can never be simple. Because the problem is in the praxis.
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Well, I am not talking about praxis. OK. Show me somewhere where the CC officially teaches and practices Marian idolatry and I will be forced to leave the CC. :eek:
 
joe371 said:
Sadly, I don’t think we will ever agree. Why: “for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” However, the word spouse only has one definition for you, it seems, and for some reason it must involve sexual relations. Joseph was a literal (as opposed to mystical) spouse of Mary. Nothing carnal about that relationship.
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Because nothing was conceived in Mary’s womb by Joseph. But something was conceived by the Holy Spirit. I mean, I must have said this line over a dozen times by now, why can’t you or the others see it? The biggie here is that you call the Holy Spirit the spouse of Mary because precisely it is by Him that Mary conceived. So if the relationship that resulted in a conception of a child is spousal, how can that be interpreted as anything else but sexual?

Jesus and the Church never is given an image of having an offspring. Joseph did not have children by Mary. So there is no sexual connotation there.
 
joe371 said:
Well, I am not talking about praxis. OK. Show me somewhere where the CC officially teaches and practices Marian idolatry and I will be forced to leave the CC. :eek:
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Well, the problem is in the praxis. You are looking for an infallible Vatican document or a paragraph in the CCC or something similar, correct? It is not there. There is more to the Christian faith that dogmatic declarations and catechisms. If our Christian life is not correctly practiced, we can be led to false paths. That is why Christ said the path is narrow. He doesn’t mean that it is hard to become a Christian, or that it is hard to know what the Christian path is, but that it is just so easy to make a mistake and be taken off the path, often we don’t realize it.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Because nothing was conceived in Mary’s womb by Joseph.
And yet Mary was his spouse - right? Therefore sex is uneeded for one person to be another persons spouse - is my only point.
But something was conceived by the Holy Spirit. I mean, I must have said this line over a dozen times by now, why can’t you or the others see it?
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ConstantineTG said:
Because nothing was conceived in Mary’s womb by Joseph. But something was conceived by the Holy Spirit. I mean, I must have said this line over a dozen times by now, why can’t you or the others see it? The biggie here is that you call the Holy Spirit the spouse of Mary because precisely it is by Him that Mary conceived. So if the relationship that resulted in a conception of a child is spousal, how can that be interpreted as anything else but sexual?

Jesus and the Church never is given an image of having an offspring. Joseph did not have children by Mary. So there is no sexual connotation there.
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I already showed in #974 that conception does not have to mean anything sexual. The premise that all things conception are sexual is false and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach this so why make it up and say it does? Otherwise that you have to say that Christ has a sexual relationship with the Church. Makes no sense.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Well, the problem is in the praxis. You are looking for an infallible Vatican document or a paragraph in the CCC or something similar, correct? It is not there. There is more to the Christian faith that dogmatic declarations and catechisms. If our Christian life is not correctly practiced, we can be led to false paths. That is why Christ said the path is narrow. He doesn’t mean that it is hard to become a Christian, or that it is hard to know what the Christian path is, but that it is just so easy to make a mistake and be taken off the path, often we don’t realize it.
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That “path” from the Catholic Church is clear. Catholics do not worship Mary. There is no “line” that the Church approaches in this regards. One could say that same about the Orthodox who kiss a picture of Mary in church and how this could approach a line of “worship” and confuse your faithful. Catholics never kiss Marian pictures in Church and only kiss the cross on Good Friday. If we did so, we would be accused of not practicing the Christian life correctly and leading people to a false path, confusing Mary with Christ.
 
PRmerger said:
**A) **Either you believe the Church erred in this canon of 27 books, and there’s something missing that should be in the canon, or there’s something admitted that you believe needs to be omitted…

OR

B) believe these Catholic bishops discerned the 27 canon NT without error. That is, they were utilizing the charism of INFALLIBILITY.

Which is it, Arizona Samson?
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A or B. There are only two choices.

🍿
 
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