Protestant View of Mariology

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Spouse is used to indicate the unique mystical bond that scripture reminds us, ineffably took place, that resulted in the Savior of the world. 👍 You believe that two people cant be spouses unless they are carnally active. That is not true.

So, based on the fact that the CC uses the word spouse when illustrating the unique mystical bond that took place between the HS and Mary, you are now accusing the CC of teaching blasphemously? :confused:
The problem here is you are avoiding the obvious. Because you are trying hard to disprove what I say. Rather, look at how the analogy is applied. Yes, there is more to a spousal relationship than sex. But what spousal quality has the Holy Spirit has with Mary? Why is she called the spouse? If you are saying because they produced the Messiah, then that is sex. Is spousal means producing an offspring, then that is sex. Because what other spousal activity or character produces a child?
 
The problem here is you are avoiding the obvious. Because you are trying hard to disprove what I say. Rather, look at how the analogy is applied. Yes, there is more to a spousal relationship than sex. But what spousal quality has the Holy Spirit has with Mary? Why is she called the spouse? If you are saying because they produced the Messiah, then that is sex. Is spousal means producing an offspring, then that is sex. Because what other spousal activity or character produces a child?
So you believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist, He was born of a virgin, died on a cross and was raised from the dead but you have a problem with the Holy Spirit and Mary having a child without a sexual relationship? Just does not make sense to me. Why place God in a box of your human reasoning and understanding?🤷
 
Oh, I don’t answer that, St. Athanasius has answered that.
This issue is St Athanasius was from “Alexandria” And as they say there “In a twinkle of an eye” the Incarnation occurred. Modern interpreters as you follow size on an almost complete absence of reference to Christs Soul and Human Nature in the Saints work and slight the reference which is there, in this they attempt to suggest a dualistic approach and attribute this to Augustine to also slight him and suggest heresy occurred through Augustine in the Western Church and further support this claim by the issue with the Protestants areas and Augustine interpretation. Then this is further affirmed by the dualism Athanasius fought with the Arian heresy.

Suffice to say this is where the confusion resides through John Romanides and his controversial speculation. Which you seem to conclude and call patristic Orthodox thinking in disregard of the fact that also the Coptic Church holds to the doctrine of Original Sin as does the West. Here the OO and CC are in documented agreement where the EO and OO are not. This also then leaves room for theology such as here, which suggests this dualistic approach and error. yet ironically their focus itself is on the dualistic approach which is supported by what the Saint did not say. Then as you see in your words has Jesus Christ as such things as “God dead” and “God a sinner” “Mary merely blessed only among women” and suggesting error here and there, there is no continuity from Creation/Fall/Incarnation. Which righty so Athanasius acknowledged at “Intimately connected”

However this somehow has a reverse effect than the Saint intended and that you are seeing the opposite of what the Saint saw in Jesus Christ and what in fact he combated with the Arian heresy, which is that Christ was not Divine as there are not very many statements with Athanasius on the human nature.

And this is the issue here since the tendency of such framework is to “assume”. I say this lead you to the such ideas that the logos worked out our salvation without our required cooperation and you have God confused in the hypostatic union leaning heavily on His human Nature. Since you have no continuity of the fall to the Incarnation. You thus assume that through the process of divinization you are no different than Mary and conclude this by the above and a vague idea of the transgression of the garden. Which is why you continue to struggle with “Death of the Flesh,.Death of the Soul” and the Apostle Paul, the Law which you automatically assume Augustine had wrong from a mistranslation of Romans 5:12.yet Augustine didn’t use 5:12 in City of God and still arrives at the same continuity from fall to incarnation. You have no answer for this and must rely on the very principle you deny to explain the fall. Which is why you have nothing to say here.

However suffice to say this is how you see Christ and Mary in this dualistic approach which has you contemplating God died, God was a sinner, and Mary was just any women no different just blessed only “among” women. This is false of the Saints own conceptuality in the larger picture of Christs Nature as we see in the Coptic Church today. This path takes what Athanasius states on the Soul of God and retranslates it to mean life which conceptual thinking then compares to our own divinization, which leads to further conflicted understanding. Most astonishing its then suggested the West developed doctrine while raising a claiming “new” anti Rome rouge theology up the flag pole, claiming its based based on the Early Church Fathers but a narrow “cherry picked” group which fits the theology, and a specific and you call this patristic and historic.

Anyway through various discussions on a few threads, this is what I am beginning to see, I don’t have the whole story “yet”, but I’m getting ahead of the rabbit on the track for sure.

However, point being look where this theology has you, its very telling in your thinking. Which isn’t to slight you, its concerning is all. It removes the “awe” of God and reduces Him to very human. Add to this misunderstanding of the original Creed/Trinity, which the EO automatically keeps focus on the first principle, and you have the Arian heresy all over again. And whats even more astonishing Athanasius in a subtle ay is used which seems to promote the thinking.

Course this is imho, but look where you are at. You have no continuity of theology based on what I’m starting to consider a dangerous one. Its clever, but its not bread, it is a “stone”. Course this stone has you here with fervor combating anything Western since its presupposed we are all heretics without mention. But the only heretical thinking has been where?
 
So you believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist, He was born of a virgin, died on a cross and was raised from the dead but you have a problem with the Holy Spirit and Mary having a child without a sexual relationship? Just does not make sense to me. Why place God in a box of your human reasoning and understanding?🤷
Because unfortunately, everyone on this forum, dare I say in this world, places God or their god in a box.

Thank you to all who are posting on this thread. Very interesting conversations.
 
But why is the Holy Spirit called by Roman Catholics the Spouse of Mary? Is it because He loves her and cares for her the same way Christ loves and cares for His Church? Is it because He laid his life down for her the way Christ laid his life down for His Church? Or is it because they conceived a baby?
Because of all of the above save for that in red.

But mainly because they are united as One so intimately, Mary and the Godhead.
 
Because unfortunately, everyone on this forum, dare I say in this world, places God or their god in a box.

Thank you to all who are posting on this thread. Very interesting conversations.
Final answer? Door number one, the stone? 😃 No bread?:confused:
 
Basically, the effect of Adam’s sin is that our nature changed. If God would alter our nature, then He would have destroyed us because we would have become something else other than what we are. So the only solution was to share His nature with ours, when Christ become incarnate this made human nature united with divine nature without altering human nature. So whatever was imperfect in human nature was perfected by the divinity of God.
That’s an excellent rationale for the Incarnation. But not the Crucifixion.

What’s your answer to the atheist’s question: why did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross to remove your sins? You don’t believe God could just wipe away sins if he wanted to?
 
the Crucifixion.
This in itself I see at as part of the spiritual/mystical focus as slightly different East/West. We in the West do remained focused on the Cross. I believe in the East while this too is true, there is also a focus on the Transfiguration/Divninization which I see in the Polish Catholic Church as it has closer Eastern roots. Course the Cross becomes focal solely in many Protestant congregations. Anyway again here then this leaves opportunity for the suggested theology to morph in the continuity Creation to Ascension from mainline Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic thinking.
 
ConstantineTG said:
"It is a Church dividing issue. Because the IC is a dogma in the Catholic Church, and we do not accept the IC for many reasons, but the biggest one is because of the Latin understanding of original sin. Yes, this particular issue did not cause the Great Schism. But it will prevent any hope for union if this is not resolved. It is not an issue that we can just brush aside and say it is a non-issue. It is. ".
Right CTG but this is what I am talking about above with…
GaryTaylor said:
:“still arrives at the same continuity from fall to incarnation. You have no answer for this and must rely on the very principle you deny to explain the fall…”
This being mainline Orthodox/Catholic/EOC which is the 4th ecumenical council or here…

orthodoxwiki.org/Fourth_Ecumenical_Council

First I’m trying to understand your understanding creation-ascension, which we have to admit isn’t the same thinking as above. I’ve never heard of this being an issue since the Greek and Russian Church’s upheld the IC historically.
 
Those Orthodox who don’t accept IC come across as appearing to have more of a defiance to reason and reflection of Catholicism more than anything.
 
Those Orthodox who don’t accept IC come across as appearing to have more of a defiance to reason and reflection of Catholicism more than anything.
I can say the same to the Catholics who wouldn’t listen to the Orthodox reason for objection. It seems that any valid reason we have are simply rejected because its dogma, no reason can ever overthrow it 🤷

But the Orthodox reason is valid. I wouldn’t have become Orthodox is it weren’t. If you do not want to accept it, it is fine. I’m not here to convince you, I am here to only present what the Orthodox belief. A belief in the IC is a defiance of the Orthodox Christian faith according to the teaching of the Fathers.
 
That’s an excellent rationale for the Incarnation. But not the Crucifixion.

What’s your answer to the atheist’s question: why did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross to remove your sins? You don’t believe God could just wipe away sins if he wanted to?
Please, read “On the incarnation”. It is all there.
 
So you believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist, He was born of a virgin, died on a cross and was raised from the dead but you have a problem with the Holy Spirit and Mary having a child without a sexual relationship? Just does not make sense to me. Why place God in a box of your human reasoning and understanding?🤷
I never said that I do not believe that Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. When did I say that? I said I disagree that their relationship is spousal. The Holy Spirit, being God who can do all things, can conceive a child in Mary’s womb (or any woman for that matter) without being that woman’s spouse.

By the way, do you not believe that every child conceived in every womb of every woman is by the power of the Holy Spirit? Because the Creed says, “I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life.”
 
I can say the same to the Catholics who wouldn’t listen to the Orthodox reason for objection. It seems that any valid reason we have are simply rejected because its dogma, no reason can ever overthrow it 🤷

But the Orthodox reason is valid. I wouldn’t have become Orthodox is it weren’t. If you do not want to accept it, it is fine. I’m not here to convince you, I am here to only present what the Orthodox belief. A belief in the IC is a defiance of the Orthodox Christian faith according to the teaching of the Fathers.
Yet this isn’t true for all Orthodox, for example the EOC, let alone the very idea is compatible in various areas of Orthodoxy… So what you are saying is the specific group you chose to follow believes this. And then there is nuance which varies from there. Here I’ll show a similar line of early thinking.

iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/

Origen original Greek:

“The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone. So that in this way the power of the Father is greater than that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that of the Son is more than that of the Holy Spirit, and in turn the power of the Holy Spirit exceeds that of every other holy being (Fragment 9 [Koetschau] tr. Butterworth 1966, pp. 33-34, and footnote).”
 
Yet this isn’t true for all Orthodox, for example the EOC, let alone the very idea is compatible in various areas of Orthodoxy… So what you are saying is the specific group you chose to follow believes this. And then there is nuance which varies from there. Here I’ll show a similar line of early thinking.

iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/

Origen original Greek:

“The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone. So that in this way the power of the Father is greater than that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that of the Son is more than that of the Holy Spirit, and in turn the power of the Holy Spirit exceeds that of every other holy being (Fragment 9 [Koetschau] tr. Butterworth 1966, pp. 33-34, and footnote).”
You do know that Origen is an anathemized heretic, right?
 
Please, read “On the incarnation”. It is all there.
I am currently working through it. It is amazing that Athanasius was apparently only in his twenties when he wrote it.

On another matter, I would say the emphasis I have always seen as a Protestant has been more on sanctification than on the crucifixion. I am not sure from what I have read that there is any real separation between our thinking on sanctification and the Orthodox understanding of divinization, although we would never use the terminology. This would tie back to our understanding of Mary as one who has fully realized sanctification and has become one of those Glorious Beings Above. Saying she is now not glorious would, at a minumum, be injudicious.
 
So you believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist, He was born of a virgin, died on a cross and was raised from the dead but you have a problem with the Holy Spirit and Mary having a child without a sexual relationship? Just does not make sense to me. Why place God in a box of your human reasoning and understanding?🤷
👍
 
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