Protestant view of original sin

[ltwin]

Hello Samwise53,
Martin Luther’s concept of original sin is different from catholics. Luther believed that due to original sin man’s free will has become so corrupted that it is no longer free in the work of one’s salvation. Thus, we have the Lutheran doctrine of Sola gratia, by grace alone. The catholic doctrine of original sin is that man’s free will is still intact though inclined to sin. Man can accept or reject God’s grace.

I may be mistaken here, but I was under the impression that Lutherans also believed that man can accept or reject God’s grace. It was the Reformed under Calvin who believed that man had no part in salvation; we are simply destined either for heaven or hell.

 

[grannymh]

I am Pentecostal, and we do believe in original sin. Two things are meant by “original sin”: the first sin of Adam and the sinful nature possessed by every man since Adam due to Adam’s first transgression.

What do Catholics mean by “original sin”?

Catholicism teaches that “original sin” is the real, freely chosen action of the first, real human Adam whereby he, as a creature, scorned God, his Creator. Abusing his gift of freedom, Adam disobeyed God’s command and thus shattered his friendship with God. Seduced by the devil, Adam freely let his trust in his Creator die in his heart. Therefore, he preferred himself over and against God and against the requirements of his creaturely status.

Catholicism refers to the contracted state of original sin which is transmitted by propagation. This is not the same as human nature per se. Catholicism teaches that the same human nature possessed by Adam is transmitted as being wounded not destroyed. Thus, we can be prone to sin, but our nature is not a sin machine in itself.

As paragraph 405 says in the link below – “Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.”

For additional information, please refer to paragraphs 396 - 409 in the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*. One can enter the Catechism at this link.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/396.htm

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[rausei]

To define the point where Catholics and most Protestants diverge on the topic of Original Sin, you would have to ask, “What happens when an unbaptized baby dies?” A Catholic would say that the unbaptized baby has not be forgiven of Original sin and therefore wouldn’t enter into Heaven. (Original Sin, you know the sin that David spoke of in Psalms 51:5, 50:7 in the Vulgate and Douay-Rheims)

Most Protestants that I have spoken with believe that a child in not accountable for any sin until the age of reason. So the unbaptized baby goes strait to Heaven. Therefore baptizing babies is a waste of time. Wait until they are past the age of reason and then baptize them. From my experience Original sin by Protestant definition is just that sin has entered into the world through Adam & Eve and that we now aren’t perfect and have a fallen nature, or we are born in sin and can not save ourselves.

A child’s immortal soul seems like a lot to bargain with if you ask me.

 

[davidv]

To define the point where Catholics and most Protestants diverge on the topic of Original Sin, you would have to ask, “What happens when an unbaptized baby dies?” A Catholic would say that the unbaptized baby has not be forgiven of Original sin and therefore wouldn’t enter into Heaven. (Original Sin, you know the sin that David spoke of in Psalms 51:5, 50:7 in the Vulgate and Douay-Rheims)

Most Protestants that I have spoken with believe that a child in not accountable for any sin until the age of reason. So the unbaptized baby goes strait to Heaven. Therefore baptizing babies is a waste of time. Wait until they are past the age of reason and then baptize them. From my experience Original sin by Protestant definition is just that sin has entered into the world through Adam & Eve and that we now aren’t perfect and have a fallen nature, or we are born in sin and can not save ourselves.

A child’s immortal soul seems like a lot to bargain with if you ask me.

You might have a valid point if what you wrote above is what the Church teaches.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[grannymh]

To define the point where Catholics and most Protestants diverge on the topic of Original Sin, you would have to ask, “What happens when an unbaptized baby dies?” A Catholic would say that the unbaptized baby has not be forgiven of Original sin and therefore wouldn’t enter into Heaven. (Original Sin, you know the sin that David spoke of in Psalms 51:5, 50:7 in the Vulgate and Douay-Rheims)

The above is not Catholic teaching.

Catholic teaching is that Jesus Christ died for all. And all means all because all humankind descended from one human couple, Adam and Eve. Age does not matter because from the moment of conception, a child is a whole human.
Here is the beginning of paragraph 1260, *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *Please note the words “in a way known to God”
**1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

Here is the last sentence in CCC 1257

1257 God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

A clarification.
Today, Original Sin is not forgiven; its contracted state is removed and then replaced with the State of Sanctifying Grace.

Information source: CCC paragraphs 404-406 & CCC 416-417

 

[grannymh]

Addition to the CCC paragraphs in post 25.

Please include CCC 1261 found in post 24 above.

Thank you.

 

[fhansen]

I was listening to a Catholic radio program the other day and the priest said that some protestant denominations do not believe in original sin. He said that for example, Martin Luther believes we are are fallen, and that God’s grace covers up our fallen nature, like new white snow covers over the clod of dirt…the dirts still there, but is covered over. My question is, if that is how some denominations believe, are they saying that God created us flawed and sinful origninally? Why would they believe a loving God would do that?

The Calvinist doctrine of predestination claims that God created some for heaven (the elect) and some for hell (the reprobate). Fallen man is so corrupted that there’s no good left in him-he cannot help but sin- and his will so totally weakened that he cannot cooperate in the least in his salvation; God must overwhelm and accomplish salvation in him all at once,* then* the man turns to God. Even Adam’s sin, according to many, was predetermined rather than simply allowed and foreseen. As if God *wanted *Adam to sin while commanding him not to sin.

Also, according to Catholic teaching regarding the Fall, man lost gifts which were not natural aspects of human nature. IOW, man fell to his “natural” level by breaking communion with God. Man needs grace; he needs* relationship with God*, in order to maintain moral integrity and health. Otherwise he spirals downward, losing self-control; sin prevails. Adam forfeited that grace, spurning God as his God. The spark of deity still remains in man, as does a degree of freedom although both are obscured and compromised. In Reformed theology, generally speaking, that loss of self-control, that “concupiscence”, was an addition to man; it was the *gaining *of a new “sin nature”. This means man was now a very different animal, so to speak, and completely unable to be otherwise to any degree. He becomes an unworthy worm of a being. This “sin nature” is the essence of the original sin which man inherits according to them.

In Catholic teaching man is wounded but not totally corrupted or mutated;* separation from God* is the essence of original sin, and concupiscence is just the natural outworking or expression of this separation. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” Jesus tells us in John 15:5.

 

[simpleas]

This thread is 4 years old!!

 

[rausei]

The above is not Catholic teaching.

Catholic teaching is that Jesus Christ died for all. And all means all because all humankind descended from one human couple, Adam and Eve. Age does not matter because from the moment of conception, a child is a whole human.
Here is the beginning of paragraph 1260, *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *Please note the words “in a way known to God”
**1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

Here is the last sentence in CCC 1257

1257 God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

A clarification.
Today, Original Sin is not forgiven; its contracted state is removed and then replaced with the State of Sanctifying Grace.

Information source: CCC paragraphs 404-406 & CCC 416-417

I guess me, my wife (who had Catecism in Italy), my parents, and the nuns that taught all of us Catechism stand corrected. I was taught that sin could not enter into Heaven and that all babies are fully human and have Original sin on their souls from conception. That we have to be Baptised via water or desire to remove the stain of Original sin from our souls. I was also taught that it was theorized that there was a place called Limbo for babies that die before Baptism but Limbo was not an offical teaching. So correct me if I’m wrong but it apprears the Churches offical positon today can be summed up as, “We’re not saying Yes they go to Heaven, we’re not No they don’t go to Heaven, we’re saying that we hope in Gods mercy therefore, knowing that God is all mercyful they probably are in Heaven.” Would that be a fair statement? Thanks

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Most Protestants that I have spoken with believe that a child in not accountable for any sin until the age of reason. So the unbaptized baby goes strait to Heaven. Therefore baptizing babies is a waste of time. Wait until they are past the age of reason and then baptize them.

A baptism may also be thought to be part of the process of choosing Christ. So to some baptizing anyone that did not choose to be baptized is not valid.

 

[grannymh]

I guess me, my wife (who had Catecism in Italy), my parents, and the nuns that taught all of us Catechism stand corrected. I was taught that sin could not enter into Heaven and that all babies are fully human and have Original sin on their souls from conception. That we have to be Baptised via water or desire to remove the stain of Original sin from our souls. I was also taught that it was theorized that there was a place called Limbo for babies that die before Baptism but Limbo was not an offical teaching. So correct me if I’m wrong but it apprears the Churches offical positon today can be summed up as, “We’re not saying Yes they go to Heaven, we’re not No they don’t go to Heaven, we’re saying that we hope in Gods mercy therefore, knowing that God is all mercyful they probably are in Heaven.” Would that be a fair statement? Thanks

" we’re saying that we hope in Gods mercy therefore, knowing that God is all mercyful they probably are in Heaven." Would that be a fair statement? Thanks"

Yes. That is a wonderful basic fair statement about babies because it leaves the final decision in God’s hands. That is the proper way. We have our trust in God.

These two CCC paragraphs give some important information about the Sacrament of Baptism. While they refer to the Sacrament in general and adults in particular, we cannot logically omit babies in the womb.

Jesus hung bloody on His cross for the weakest of humans. Only God knows how to reach and touch the souls of the little ones.

**CCC 1257 **The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

**CCC 1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[Lucretius]

I think a major difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants see Grace as something that ultimately perfects human nature, and while Catholics don’t disagree with this in itself, Catholics believe that Grace takes us above and beyond human nature, with human nature perfected in the process.

Christi pax,

Lucretius