Protestant view of sin & justification

[spedteacherita]

I hear the same all the time, but there is so much scripture that contradicts what they say they believe.

Satan believes in God.

(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

How does your friend know that he is not one of them, in the above verse?

It seams to me that they have blinders on and they cannot see or hear what is in scripture, or they twist the scripture to make it look like it is in agreement with what they believe.

Satan believes God and knows God but he cannot believe “in” God - he has no ability to have faith in what the final sacrifice of Christ’s death on the cross means to us as salvation from eternal separation and damnation from God. Faith, as tiny as a mustard seed, is strong in God’s eyes and it’s that faith that will continue to grow if one is continually in the Word, (Who is Christ) , in a state of constant repentance and experiences conversion throughout his/her life. That’s also where we rely on our sacraments of baptism and holy communion as they are tangible experiences of Christ and His grace for us.

It’s getting too late for me to do this…I’m beginning to second guess myself.

Good night and God bless all!
May He send His holy angels to surround you in a peaceful sleep…

In His love, Rita

 

[benhur]

[He believes that **nothing

we do can separate us eternally from God - except our unbelief. See, so he does think sin can separate us. The biggest sin in the world is unbelief, even rejection of the One who authors our faith.For that there is no forgiveness.

What if huge sinners still “believe” in the truth of salvation through the grace of Jesus? Do they still automatically go to heaven? How do we discuss this?

Huge as in many venial sins or huge as in many mortal sins ?

Is the primary focus on what we do or do not do(sinning or not sinning), or on what Christ has done and continues to do for us and thru us ?

How many times does He say, " Depart from me, I never knew you, you workers (religious) of inequity." ? I say they never knew Jesus, were not born again , and that was their biggest inequity, besides other inequities. It is not that they knew Him, then sinned, then did not know Him.

Those advocating OSAS will say one who is truly saved will not habitually sin to the point of rejecting Christ, and will hate their sin and be graced with a penitent heart, making your question moot.

 

[spedteacherita]

Jesus said that whoever even looks on a woman with lustful intent commits adultery; so while I must preface by saying it’s absolutely horrible and sickening, it is too something that Christians (Catholic and Protestant) struggle with, and fight against as they walk with Christ.

So to believe (perhaps) as you do that if someone commits adultery in their heart and then dies soon after, while remorseful, while walking with Christ, while struggling and trying to improve, but not yet confessed is now going to burn in Hell for all of eternity because it’s as you claim, “Mortal.” Well I disagree.

I agree with you. The key words you used in here are “while walking with Christ, struggling and trying to improve.”

If a person is walking with Christ as well as being remorseful that, in itself, is a confession of his heart…I mean, correct me if you think it’s wrong but if one is walking with Christ, there is a relationship - the Holy Spirit is an integral part of the relationship and takes those unspoken requests and concerns and shares them with Jesus and God with groans so deep - I rest on that promise a lot because, I really am not a perfect person and I am constantly looking for repentance from God and those words just won’t come in a way that I can express them…Thank God He sent the Holy Spirit to be our Comforter…

God bless…and NOW I’m going to bed…

Rita

 

[Billy_Buescher]

If I understand this correctly.

That once someone is saved, they then belong to Christ, (are in Christ).

Then all of the souls that are not in Christ, Christ does not have, as they would be ( in Adam).

Any one that would be in Christ, would be saved and Christ can not lose them.

Those not saved are in Adam, Christ cannot lose them either, because Christ never had them, because they were never saved.

 

[JonNC]

=Estevao;12982146]The protestant view is that good works will flow automatically from faith, that they are manifestations of faith, and that faith without these good works isn’t really “faith” anyway, **but they will contend that the ground of justification (i.e. the reason we can go to heaven) is faith alone. **I think both Catholics and Protestants will certainly say that faith and works are both important.

On the bolded, not exactly. The reason we can go to Heaven is Grace, and Grace alone. The way we access that grace for Justification is faith alone. We can also lose that Justification if we choose to reject grace.

Protestants will usually affirm that original sin has so destroyed our capacity to do good that we don’t really have a free will to choose the good in matters of salvation or damnation. Instead, because we are so inclined to evil, God does an act in us that operates independently of our free will to do good. Catholics maintain that our wills retain an ability to, with the help of God’s grace, to choose the good.

From the Council of Orange

Canon 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, “The will is prepared by the Lord” (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

Canon 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism — if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

Protestants will often charge that Catholics think that we can work our way to salvation because we say that our good works merit salvation. Catholics have never affirmed that we can work our way to heaven based on our own efforts, this has been condemned at the Council of Orange and the Council of Trent. What we say is that God operates in us and we cooperate with His grace and with our wills to do good works.

Agreed.

Most protestants will also say that salvation is a one time event, whereas Catholics believe that salvation is a lifelong process. Protestants believe in “imputed” righteous, that faith allows one’s sins to be covered via the sacrifice of Christ and his righteousness in justification, but Catholics believe in “infused” righteousness, that sin is really blotted out .

I’m a life-long Lutheran, and I still don’t see this. My faith began at Baptism, one month and one day after my birth. I have continued to grow in grace and faith since them. I can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint any one time event.

The early Protestant reformers logically separated justification and sanctification (and glorification, which happens after death in Protestant theology).

Not possible. Distinct? Yes. Separate? No.
“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” - Luther

continued

 

[JonNC]

[sidebar: **Historically I think this was crucial to the success of the protestant reformation, once people became convinced that they didn’t need the Church and her sacraments for their spiritual life

(which came about through public debate on theology, allowing cities and towns to decide what beliefs they would have), charges of corruption against the church (which weren’t really anything new in Church history and had been made for centuries before 1517) became powerful enough to warrant a split from the Church.]
The Lutheran reformers would spin in their graves.
This may have been true of some protestants, but the Lutheran reformers never would have said you don’t need the Church and the sacraments.

Catholics do not separate these three, for us they are three joined processes that begin at baptism. This is why we say that a person can lose her justification through mortal sin (which can then be regained through sacramental confession or a perfect act of contrition if confession is not available). Protestants contend that a person can “backslide” in sanctification but cannot lose her justification.

Some protestants.

Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

7] They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such 8] perfection in this life that they cannot sin.

• The Augsburg Confession
  The “they” refers to the evangelical (Lutheran) churches.

Jon

 

[exnihilo]

We are justified when we simply believe in Christ, and nothing we do can un-save us after we’ve chosen to “believe”. He says that when we say sin can separate us from God, we’re saying we’re more powerful than God - that His sacrifice was incomplete and insufficient.

That response seems to me rather unsophisticated. One could say that if anyone goes to Hell then that means God’s saving work was insufficient. This person, or those with similar beliefs, probably believe some people are going to Hell. It is not an insufficiency in God’s work that sends a man to Hell. It is man’s choice. If a man chooses to sin then he separates himself from God. Sin is always volitional. ‘Incomplete and insufficient’ seems like a slogan for rhetorical power rather than a carefully though out theology.

Jesus said that whoever even looks on a woman with lustful intent commits adultery; so while I must preface by saying it’s absolutely horrible and sickening, it is too something that Christians (Catholic and Protestant) struggle with, and fight against as they walk with Christ.

There are degrees of sin. Jesus was elevating the sins of hearts not decreasing the weight of fully accomplished acts. To commit adultery in your heart is a sin. But a worse sin is to complete the act of adultery. As a Christian we are empowered by God’s grace to overcome sin and grow in holiness. A man who has a habit of sinful acts is prior to the act entertaining sinful thoughts. An improvement is to stop the sinful acts. This is accomplished by exercising the will to not engage in the sinful acts, but also to not engage in the sinful thoughts. Since sinful acts follow sinful thoughts. Growing in holiness is ultimately accomplished by custody of the heart. I think that is the ultimate message Christ is conveying here.

 

[spedteacherita]

SAVINGRACE;12982346:

Are there not conditions for a proper “confession”, and a proper “penance” ? How do you really know if you did it “right” ?

P’s are not orphans without a pope, nor are they clueless to forgiveness without the confessional.

Blessings

Amen, brother Ben!