Protestant view on christ's sacrifice.

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Thus from the Protestant perspective there is no need to ‘re-present’ the sacrifice of Christ. It was offered once for all. It perfected for all time those who are sanctified. If it has to be re presented then I find it difficult to see where the once for all time perfection Hebrews speaks of was…

Peace 🙂

Lincs
The “re-presentation” of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, making it “present” for us here and now.

Jesus left us the gift of the Mass because it just was not enough for Him that His followers should just hear about His saving death, resurrection and ascension.

At the Catholic Mass, we are truly present, transcending time, and are brought to the foot of the cross of Christ. We have a direct encounter with His very body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

Jesus gives us Himself.

I should point out also that the most hated place of the devil is The Eucharist. The second most hated place of the devil is The Confessional.

The reason: Because the devil knows of the True Presence of Jesus in both of those beautiful Sacraments and the healing that we received as a result. How kind you are Christ Jesus to give us such lovely good gifts!
 
The “re-presentation” of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, making it “present” for us here and now.

Jesus left us the gift of the Mass because it just was not enough for Him that His followers should just hear about His saving death, resurrection and ascension.

At the Catholic Mass, we are truly present, transcending time, and are brought to the foot of the cross of Christ. We have a direct encounter with His very body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

Jesus gives us Himself.

I should point out also that the most hated place of the devil is The Eucharist. The second most hated place of the devil is The Confessional.

The reason: Because the devil knows of the True Presence of Jesus in both of those beautiful Sacraments and the healing that we received as a result. How kind you are Christ Jesus to give us such lovely good gifts!
Does what Jews do during Passover make the original Passover “present” during their observing of it? At least is that the intention?
 
Does what Jews do during Passover make the original Passover “present” during their observing of it? At least is that the intention?
I am not an expert on Judaism, but I believe the answer is yes. I do recall listening to a lecture on The Presence of Jesus in The Eucharist and His Jewish Roots and the connection between the two by Dr. Brant Petre and he touched on what you quoted.

I would have to find my notes on Dr. Petre’s talk and see exactly what he said, unless someone else who is more knowledgeable in this area, could provide the full answer before that happens.

Peace
 
The “re-presentation” of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, making it “present” for us here and now.

Jesus left us the gift of the Mass because it just was not enough for Him that His followers should just hear about His saving death, resurrection and ascension.

At the Catholic Mass, we are truly present, transcending time, and are brought to the foot of the cross of Christ. We have a direct encounter with His very body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

Jesus gives us Himself.

I should point out also that the most hated place of the devil is The Eucharist. The second most hated place of the devil is The Confessional.

The reason: Because the devil knows of the True Presence of Jesus in both of those beautiful Sacraments and the healing that we received as a result. How kind you are Christ Jesus to give us such lovely good gifts!
Nice post. 😉
 
The “re-presentation” of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, making it “present” for us here and now.

Jesus left us the gift of the Mass because it just was not enough for Him that His followers should just hear about His saving death, resurrection and ascension.

At the Catholic Mass, we are truly present, transcending time, and are brought to the foot of the cross of Christ. We have a direct encounter with His very body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

Jesus gives us Himself.

I should point out also that the most hated place of the devil is The Eucharist. The second most hated place of the devil is The Confessional.

The reason: Because the devil knows of the True Presence of Jesus in both of those beautiful Sacraments and the healing that we received as a result. How kind you are Christ Jesus to give us such lovely good gifts!
Hi again 🙂

Hebrews 10:14: For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Why must it be re presented?

Also, yes: “Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.” - vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc30.html

Forgive slow responses… I made the mistake of participating in 2 threads at the same time 😃

Lincs
 
The “re-presentation” of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, making it “present” for us here and now.

Jesus left us the gift of the Mass because it just was not enough for Him that His followers should just hear about His saving death, resurrection and ascension.

At the Catholic Mass, we are truly present, transcending time, and are brought to the foot of the cross of Christ. We have a direct encounter with His very body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

Jesus gives us Himself.

I should point out also that the most hated place of the devil is The Eucharist. The second most hated place of the devil is The Confessional.

The reason: Because the devil knows of the True Presence of Jesus in both of those beautiful Sacraments and the healing that we received as a result. How kind you are Christ Jesus to give us such lovely good gifts!
I am so grateful of the early followers to have preserved this gift of the Mass, not that they had much choice. Can you imagine had it not been preserved and 1600 years later we determine its importance then try to re-enact it then. What would that look like?🤷
 
Hi again 🙂

Hebrews 10:14: For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Why must it be re presented?

Also, yes: “Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.” - vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc30.html

Forgive slow responses… I made the mistake of participating in 2 threads at the same time 😃

Lincs
The New and Everlasting Covenant so that Sins may be forgiven. Do This! Are you doing it? 🤷

All Four Gospels and St Paul Corinthians 11:27-29 are you familiar? … all hope is in the Cross. The blood poured out in abundance washed the world clean. as Saint John has stated…

But it doesn’t forgive the future sins man aquires as St Paul is speaking about above and all four Gospels cover. For that is the Body and Blood of Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world. Today for YOU. So your sins may be forgiven and He may be remembered through worship.
 
Thanks for the speedy reply 🙂
The New and Everlasting Covenant so that Sins may be forgiven. Do This! Are you doing it?
My church does indeed celebrate the Eucharist. Where we remember the Lord’s work on Calvary, proclaim his death and spiritually feed upon Christ - vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc30.html
All Four Gospels and St Paul Corinthians 11:27-29 are you familiar? … all hope is in the Cross. The blood poured out in abundance washed the world clean. as Saint John has stated…
1 Corinthians 11:27-29: Indeed, Paul warns against unworthy participation in the Eucharist. Indeed, Jesus, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.
But it doesn’t forgive the future sins man aquires as St Paul is speaking about above and all four Gospels cover. For that is the Body and Blood of Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world. Today for YOU. So you sins may be forgiven and He may be remembered.
Hebrews 10:12-14: ESV: But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

I here see one sacrifice for all time, perfecting them for all time. Past present and future.

Why does it have to be re presented? Would this not imply it didn’t perfect them for all time?

Peace 🙂

Lincs
 
Thanks for the speedy reply 🙂

My church does indeed celebrate the Eucharist. Where we remember the Lord’s work on Calvary, proclaim his death and spiritually feed upon Christ - vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc30.html

1 Corinthians 11:27-29: Indeed, Paul warns against unworthy participation in the Eucharist. Indeed, Jesus, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

Hebrews 10:12-14: ESV: But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

I here see one sacrifice for all time, perfecting them for all time. Past present and future.

Why does it have to be re presented? Would this not imply it didn’t perfect them for all time?

Peace 🙂

Lincs
Your speeding ahead with reading 27-29.

What exactly is St Paul talking about in 1-Corinthians 11:27-29. And there is you answer. Chaper 11 is about the last supper Eucharist etc. What is he saying in 27-29.?

Peace
 
Here so all can follow along with Bible study 101;) Your making me work now:p And thats the KJV thats 100 lashes for using that in that CC:)

1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

17Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come
 
Your speeding ahead with reading 27-29.

What exactly is St Paul talking about in 1-Corinthians 11:27-29. And there is you answer. Chaper 11 is about the last supper Eucharist etc. What is he saying in 27-29.?

Peace
That unworthy participation in the Eucharist is a dangerous thing. That appears to be its primary message. In my tradition, we spiritually feed on Christ Crucified and all the benefits of his death at the Eucharist, invited there by him; ‘take, eat’ Matt 26:26… As such to do so unworthily rightly is warned against.

If I may also ask again my question from my last post;

Why does it have to be re presented? Would this not imply it didn’t perfect them for all time?

Peace 🙂

Lincs
 
😃
As an inquisitor truely seeking after God I was not going to say anything. Just read and learn.

I am trying to figure out the difference in beliefs and RCIA doesnt start until August.

At any rate I know you want to know how prodestents see this subject so I will put my 2 cents in.

Jesus suffered, died, was resurected on the third day. He died a perfect sacrifice. Before Christ animals were offered up. This was no longer needed!

The church that I attended did NOT believe you were absolved of sin commited After you recognized him as your savior and accepeted him into your life.
“Faith without works is dead”

We did NOT believe in name it and claim it.

So yes, we believed that we are “washed in the blood” but that does not give us free rain to do “our own will” and sin.

How does that differ from you belief? I dont have a catholic bible and like I said RCIA does not start until August and I am trying to learn as much as I can.

:blessyou:
 
That unworthy participation in the Eucharist is a dangerous thing. That appears to be its primary message. In my tradition, we spiritually feed on Christ Crucified and all the benefits of his death at the Eucharist, invited there by him; ‘take, eat’ Matt 26:26… As such to do so unworthily rightly is warned against.

If I may also ask again my question from my last post;

Why does it have to be re presented? Would this not imply it didn’t perfect them for all time?

Peace 🙂

Lincs
Hi LIncs,

Yes unworthy participation as in receiving the Eucharist/Bread in a state of sin. Thus reconciliation/penance.

Point being we see the pattern here already in the church immediately after Christ in how they worship. We see the sacrifice of the OT and Old Covenant and the sacrifice of the NT and New Covenant, the Everlasting Covenant.

As to re-presented, as Christ emptied Himself at Calvery, so to we are all on this path to Calvery in one way shape or form. All have a Cross to bear in this world. So to then we must empty ourselves, so as St Pauls state, It is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in I.

Confession/Communion =Eucharist=State of Grace. The idea which is difficult is to remain in a perpetual State of Grace. And there are different stages or steps as on Jacobs Ladder biblically on in Daniel when God tell Daniel to remain on this step. So this is the ascent/decent process of Sanctifying Grace. Which is why daily prayer is important.

Anyway to get back to re-presented.

So the two aspects which become imperative is the Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Reconciliation/penance. Sin cannot be forgiven but through the Apostles which Christ established thus the ordained Priesthood “Altus Christus”. Biblical for example in John 20-22-23 among other areas.

So then whats happening here is Jesus Christ give us the Apostles, who in turn give us Jesus Christ in the New and Everlasting Covenant.

The re-represented is also Biblical in context/content throughout the liturgical calender. Jesus followed all the Jewish Laws, and as He sates in scripture, I didn’t come to change not one word of my Fathers law, not one stripe of one letter. So to the cycle is re-presented as is passover this weekend with the the new sacrifical lamb which is literally Jesus Christ literally in the Eucharist re-presented as the New Passover at mass today or Palm Sunday, thus next week Easter etc. Thus the liturgical calender repeats itself just as it always has. Nothing changed not one stripe of one letter. The institution of the Eucharist, the Sacraments were added Biblically as we see to help Souls who seek Christ Crucified remain in state of Grace, and to hopefully move up Jacobs ladder to ascend. And you ascend by descending as in emptying yourself thus Virtues, [as Christ did] Sanctifying Grace. Jesus and Mary are two perfect examples. Thus it ties in with peace2u2 and what he was getting around to.

“Would this not imply it didn’t perfect them for all time?” as to this question, mankind was dead in the water, the gates of heaven were closed. no-one could acheive nor did acheive heaven before Christ Crucified, not Mose’s not Elijah not no-one. Christs blood spilled payed the price of mans Original Sin [Isaiahs prophecy 700 years earlier] and opened the gates of heaven, so you could obtain eternal salvation. And you obtain this salvation by doing exactly as Jesus states, pick up your Cross and follow me.

Christ Crucified bought eternal salvation, but its not, He died and you can live as you please and “Thanks Jesus” I’ll see you when I get there after having my share of this physical world.

So the question is; How do you obtain Eternal Salvation? Christ did not do that for you already, he Saved man dead in the water. He gave you the opportunity to do as He did and save your Soul through Him. By Him living in you, just as St Paul states. It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in I. Or I am a prisoner of Jesus Christ what are you a prisoner of?

St Paul is perfect example of a Soul who strives on the path. Run the Race, Finish the Course. What race what course? Wait this sounds like work, what is Paul talking about? What does Christ mean pick up you Cross and follow me? What Cross? How do you do that?

Follow what I’m saying?

Peace
 
😃
As an inquisitor truely seeking after God I was not going to say anything. Just read and learn.

I am trying to figure out the difference in beliefs and RCIA doesnt start until August.

At any rate I know you want to know how prodestents see this subject so I will put my 2 cents in.

Jesus suffered, died, was resurected on the third day. He died a perfect sacrifice. Before Christ animals were offered up. This was no longer needed!

The church that I attended did NOT believe you were absolved of sin commited After you recognized him as your savior and accepeted him into your life.
“Faith without works is dead”

We did NOT believe in name it and claim it.

So yes, we believed that we are “washed in the blood” but that does not give us free rain to do “our own will” and sin.

How does that differ from you belief? I dont have a catholic bible and like I said RCIA does not start until August and I am trying to learn as much as I can.

:blessyou:
Hi my friend, I started to, as I see others have started to address some of this concerns in dialogue with Lincs, who seems pretty educated in Bible/Doctrine/History Oral/Written above. Hope it helps as I considered your question also in answering his.

Peace
 
The notion that the bishops and popes of Catholic Church of the current era (since Vatican II Council) have as their aim the conversion of Protestant Christians to the Catholic Church is…
A SERIOUS DOCTRINAL ERROR.
How so many people in this forum could be promoting this doctrinal error with no one in authority correcting it is incomprehensible to me.
Just read the Vatican II Council’s documents, especially these:
Also read this clarifying document by Cardinal Ratzinger, using a correct theological understanding of the crucial terms “subjective” and “objectively”:
vatican.va/roman_curia/co…-iesus_en.html
Also see this from a recent Synod of Bishops (Catholic) and approved by the pope:
vatican.va/roman_curia/sy…sembly_en.html (all about the “New Evangelization”)
Jimmy Akins wrote a book called “Mass Confusion” about confusion about the liturgy. But he really needs to write one about what the “New Evangelization” means and doesn’t mean.
Protestants don’t have any general need to “convert.” They are already members of the same Church as are Catholics. Blessed John Paul II CONSTANTLY repeated both to these truths. Pope Benedict XVI does the same.
Anyone who says that in general Protestants must “convert” in order to be saved or in order to have a better chance of attaining eternal life are DISSENTERS who are operating on their own private agenda that is flatly disapproved of by the Catholic pope and bishops. There are right wing Catholic dissenting groups, and one can join them if one wants. It is a free country. But just know that you are a dissenter.
**Bartolome Casas **
Junior Member
Join Date: November 24, 2011
Posts: 291
Religion: Catholic
 
I’m not sure what you are trying to say mick321? The Vatican links above all bring me to to opening page of the Vatican web-sight which they upgraded in 2012. Unless its just happening to me?

I assume by looking at those links, they are referrences to the V-II. Not sure about the others. So LG would cover all that. And LG states their is No Salvation Outside the Church, which there is at this moment another link which would be a good read since its a good thread. There you’ll find information as to that concept.

As to the New Evangelization it has nothing to do with Protestants or anyone else. Its about Catholic’s re-educating themselves in their own Faith. So why Jimmy Akins would be relevant to anything is beyond me?

Peace
 
Hi again 🙂

Why must it be re presented?
Because many would forget!

We need that “material” part of the Sacrament because God knows that we are material people. He made us out of matter which is material and we respond to the material world.

Many of us engage in idolatry of material things. God prefers that we Worship Him.

We know that God is Spirit and He reveals Himself through material. Like, people, things, nature. So why not reveal Himself, all of Him, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity by the means of The Blessed Sacrament?

Psalm 63

A psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah.
O God, you are my God-- for you I long! For you my body yearns; for you my soul thirsts, Like a land parched, lifeless, and without water.
So I look to you in the sanctuary to see your power and glory.
For your love is better than life; my lips offer you worship!
I will bless you as long as I live; I will lift up my hands, calling on your name.
My soul shall savor the rich banquet of praise, with joyous lips my mouth shall honor you!
When I think of you upon my bed, through the night watches I will recall
That you indeed are my help, and in the shadow of your wings I shout for joy.
My soul clings fast to you; your right hand upholds me.
But those who seek my life will come to ruin; they shall go down to the depths of the earth!
They shall be handed over to the sword and become the prey of jackals!
But the king shall rejoice in God; all who swear by the Lord shall exult, for the mouths of liars will be shut!
 
I’m not sure how much more in depth the Bible had to go with Jesus and his dialogue about eating the bread. He basically stated “If you don’t eat the bread you have no life”🤷 And then asked the Apostles are you leaving also? And the affirmative was NO. And rightfully so I would have hung around him like it was my responsibilty too. 😉 Truth of the matter? It is, and still is.

Now some may conclude the CC is incorrect in their research and Tradition be it oral or written.

In all my wisdom I have concluded they are absolutely correct. In fact so many scholars from all the Apostolic Churchs have affirmed this for 2000 years, Saints, Partiarchs, Popes, and intellects that to me its sound advice to… Go Eat the Bread of Life, Every Sunday in a State of Grace. And if your not in the state of Grace go have a chat with Jesus Christs representatives on earth who “actually” do have that authority and get youself in a State of Grace? They don’t cut hands off, they don’t stone you, they forgive you:shrug:

Now if you believe you found a path, short-cut or whatever? We say “We Know where the Church is, We do not know where it is not” And we part ways at the point, and that has been the historic fact with all who seem to conclude differently for 2000 years. No hard feelings, in fact we say God Bless You, your are Blessed to have found God.

Peace
 
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